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WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

Wilts Wanderer

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Why is the Jacobite the only consideration in terms of price sensitivity? This ruling impacts the whole of WCRC’s passenger operations nationally, of which the Jacobite is only a minor part.
 
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Killingworth

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Why is the Jacobite the only consideration in terms of price sensitivity? This ruling impacts the whole of WCRC’s passenger operations nationally, of which the Jacobite is only a minor part.
Because it's the best known thanks to great marketing by others than WCRC and the National Trust of Scotland of steam trains crossing McAlpine's Glenfinnan Viaduct. It draws large crowds every day swamping the car parks. I'd question whether every train is sold out. I believe some tickets can be bought on the day.
 

StephenHunter

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As a heritage railway guard who spends an awful lot of his time looking out windows entering and leaving platforms I cant really say Im awareof any incidents where the door has been opened before the train has come to the halt, in fact the issue is that a lot of passengers dont know now how to operate slam doors and will remain trapped in the train until the door is opened by staff.
It's a lot harder with Mark 1s and pre-Mark 1 stock that doesn't have internal mechanisms.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Because it's the best known thanks to great marketing by others than WCRC and the National Trust of Scotland of steam trains crossing McAlpine's Glenfinnan Viaduct. It draws large crowds every day swamping the car parks.

The headline operation that isn’t actually representative. Most of WCRC’s trains are charter services offering predominantly dining or light luxury catering with a smaller amount of standard class for ‘tourists’ on low frequency long-distance route itineraries. The Jacobite is nearly the complete opposite of this, and offers no dining class.
 

island

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But the mainline railway already has CDL? This judgement has no impact on it?
The mainline railway has, if I am not mistaken, exactly two rakes of slam door stock in use (namely the two Night Riviera rakes).
 

Dai Corner

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The headline operation that isn’t actually representative. Most of WCRC’s trains are charter services offering predominantly dining or light luxury catering with a smaller amount of standard class for ‘tourists’ on low frequency long-distance route itineraries. The Jacobite is nearly the complete opposite of this, and offers no dining class.
I doubt if these are particularly price-sensitive either.
 

Meerkat

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Mallaig, however, does substantially rely on it.
Does it really? It’s a couple of trains a day for part of the year and they only stop for an hour and a half. I would have thought being a significant ferry port was more essential.
 

Killingworth

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Does it really? It’s a couple of trains a day for part of the year and they only stop for an hour and a half. I would have thought being a significant ferry port was more essential.
There's not a lot to do in Mallaig and what is spent by Jacobite travellers will be spent in very few of the few businesses trading there. The NTS centre at Glenfinnan probably takes as much from car and coach parties. Indirectly it helps to draw people to the Fort William area whether they use or just view the trains.
 

StephenHunter

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There's not a lot to do in Mallaig and what is spent by Jacobite travellers will be spent in very few of the few businesses trading there. The NTS centre at Glenfinnan probably takes as much from car and coach parties. Indirectly it helps to draw people to the Fort William area whether they use or just view the trains.
When I went in 2016, the local eateries were packed out and I had to eat my lunch in the station concourse.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Does it really? It’s a couple of trains a day for part of the year and they only stop for an hour and a half. I would have thought being a significant ferry port was more essential.

I will be very surprised if the local restaurants, tourist-orientated shops and pubs could fail to notice the loss of 2x trainloads (300-400 pax on each) visiting their premises. On the occasion I travelled on the morning Jacobite we were almost the last people off the train and struggled to find a spot for lunch as most places were stuffed full of those who had preceded us. If everyone on average spends £25 during the 90 min turnround, that’s £10k per train, per day into the local economy.
 

Rail M

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At the end of the day. The operational railway is not a museum. If operators want to run on it they need to abide the same rules as everyone else. If they don’t want to there are many heritage railways to do this. It can’t be a 2 tiered system.
 

ainsworth74

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The mainline railway has, if I am not mistaken, exactly two rakes of slam door stock in use (namely the two Night Riviera rakes).
I think that's right, I certainly can't think of any others off hand. Both rakes have CDL of course and have done for donkeys years!
 

JonathanH

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I think that's right, I certainly can't think of any others off hand. Both rakes have CDL of course and have done for donkeys years!
...and more recently have been fitted with a very sensible additional feature that ensures the door windows stay shut whilst the train is in motion.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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...and more recently have been fitted with a very sensible additional feature that ensures the door windows stay shut whilst the train is in motion.

And despite this, the ORR still maintains that they are not safe enough to carry normal passengers within Cornwall, requiring continued duplication of the service by ’day’ stock. ORR logic beggars belief at times.
 

185

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Thinking pragmatically. I bet the cost of the assessing, to-ing and fro-ing, litigation - the ORR's cost to the taxpayer could have funded the installation of Central Door Locking on the entire nation's heritage fleet, mainline or otherwise.

Moving forward, I wonder what the cost of getting them back on the road is.
 

Titfield

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I think the issue would be that for the mainline operation the charter operators have been operating on a derogation from existing legislation for many years.
This legislation doesnt apply to heritage railways along with a raft of other stuff. I think if the ORR were looking to introduce this ruling to heritage railways it would need new legilsation. New legislation would normally in the heritage world have been discussed via the ORR/HRA and a plan would have been drawn up to meet it.
Theres a lot of things that would need to be considered. At my railway (and others) we have considerable pre MK1 rolling stock, a lot of railways offer things like brake van rides etc. etc. I have no doubt that if we needed to we could fit CDL within our organisation but it might well mean we chose to reduce our fleet of historic vehicles as a consequence especially as the fitment would be an awful lot of one offs.
As a heritage railway guard who spends an awful lot of his time looking out windows entering and leaving platforms I cant really say Im awareof any incidents where the door has been opened before the train has come to the halt, in fact the issue is that a lot of passengers dont know now how to operate slam doors and will remain trapped in the train until the door is opened by staff.

Yes I accept that this relates to a derogation for charter operator using "heritage stock" on the mainline railway.

However it would only take one accident on a heritage railway for that Heritage Railway to find itself in a challenging position if lawyers acting for the deceased or injured asked the simple question "why wasnt the rolling stock fitted with CDL? To answer "because the legislation does not require it" may be legally correct but it would not absolve them of liability. It may be not that the ORR wishes to introduce such measures on a heritage railway but would be compelled to do so after such an incident.

As someone who has spent much time on a heritage railway i have witnessed a very small number of occasions when a passenger has opened the door as the train was entering a platform prior to coming to a halt. The fact that a lot of passengers do not know how to operate slam doors gives me no comfort because it is that very ignorance that can lead to an incident because the passenger has no appreciation of what actions can put them in peril. The tragic accident on the Gatwick Express demonstrated that a combination of circumstances thought to be (so remote as to be) impossible to occur can indeed happen.
 

Dave S 56F

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See rail advent news article titled: west coast railways exemption court decision announced,
on this high Court ruling on W.C.R.C. Loses their judicial C.D.L. argument "the courts judgement does not mean a suspension of services or does not prevent them from running charter trains."
(I can't provide a link although you will find the news article on rail advent) This is on of the paragraphs I've copied that seems pretty significant to the high Court ruling cos it must mean west coast railways haven't had their T.O.C. operating licence revoked or suspended until further notice.
So it must mean steam tours under W.C.R.C. Railway Touring Co brands tours can still commence in 2024 as long as no further incidents on board their trains regarding window hanging or the bolts been tampered with on slam door stock they operate.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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See rail advent news article titled: west coast railways exemption court decision announced,
on this high Court ruling on W.C.R.C. Loses their judicial C.D.L. argument "the courts judgement does not mean a suspension of services or does not prevent them from running charter trains."
(I can't provide a link although you will find the news article on rail advent) This is on of the paragraphs I've copied that seems pretty significant to the high Court ruling cos it must mean west coast railways haven't had their T.O.C. operating licence revoked or suspended until further notice.
So it must mean steam tours under W.C.R.C. Railway Touring Co brands tours can still commence in 2024 as long as no further incidents on board their trains regarding window hanging or the bolts been tampered with on slam door stock they operate.

Don‘t WCRC currently have a derogation extension until Feb or Mar 2024?
 

HamworthyGoods

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So it must mean steam tours under W.C.R.C. Railway Touring Co brands tours can still commence in 2024 as long as no further incidents on board their trains regarding window hanging or the bolts been tampered with on slam door stock they operate.

No it means tours can commence provided WCRC starts dialogue with ORR in presenting a meaningful plan to make their rolling stock compliant.
 

Peter Mugridge

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... and the plan is to fit it to Gordon Petitt i.e. the 4VEP.
That one unit alone has more doors on it than the total for both Jacobite rakes and the fitting isn't being funded by £1 million of earnings either.

It will be interesting to see what the cost comes out as when that is done - but we must bear in mind that the VEP will have a constant electricity supply which the Jacobite doesn't and which has been stated on this forum as being a factor in the cost.
 

railfan99

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What? Why would it drive people to road travel? We're talking about heritage railtours, not regular public transport. Someone who wants to go on the Jacobite and can't because it isn't running won't drive to Mallaig. They'll get the ScotRail service instead, as happened every day during the suspension earlier this year. And someone who books a railtour from their local area to say, York, only to have it cancelled won't get in the car and drive to York. They'll book on another railtour going from their local area.

When I was at a Melbourne Catholic major hospital about four years ago, the surgeon in his rooms upon knowing I liked railways said "you should ride (sic) 'The Jacobite'" and extolled its virtues.

Many international tourists wouldn't be seen dead on a ScotRail railcar, but do want to travel on 'The Jacobite'.
 

357

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I might be in the minority here but I think it's the correct decision.
 
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I might be in the minority here but I think it's the correct decision.
I doubt you are in the minority. Not only the correct decision the blindingly obvious outcome. I assume WC lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank, as they are the only winners in this exercise which is a complete waste of money
 

Mountain Man

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I suspect the town of Mallaig is indeed severely worried about the prospect of the Jacobite ceasing operations, it is a very important majority of summer tourism there.
What is your evidence for that?

It's a critical ferry port on the West coast with numbers far higher than the Jacobite. Plus the ScotRail services, plus those who visit as part of the road to the Isles, and those who stay locally as there are a lot of local b and bs.

What is your data to back the claim about a majority?
 
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1Q18

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That one unit alone has more doors on it than the total for both Jacobite rakes and the fitting isn't being funded by £1 million of earnings either.

It will be interesting to see what the cost comes out as when that is done - but we must bear in mind that the VEP will have a constant electricity supply which the Jacobite doesn't and which has been stated on this forum as being a factor in the cost.
I’d guess that a significant number of doors on the 4-VEP will be secured out of use for main line use. I can’t see the owners objecting as long as it’s done in a manner which can easily be reversed - locking with T-keys and sticking out of use signs on the droplights may be sufficient.

So it must mean steam tours under W.C.R.C. Railway Touring Co brands tours can still commence in 2024 as long as no further incidents on board their trains regarding window hanging or the bolts been tampered with on slam door stock they operate.
It means that if WCRC apply for a further derogation it will need to be backed up by a detailed and time-limited plan to achieve full compliance, as other charter operators have done. They will almost certainly be able to keep running as long as they start fitting vehicles with CDL within a reasonable timeframe.
 
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Brissle Girl

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What is your evidence for that?

It's a critical ferry port on the West coast with numbers far higher than the Jacobite. Plus the ScotRail services, plus those who visit as part of the road to the Isles, and those who stay locally as there are a lot of local b and bs.

What is your data to back the claim about a majority?
I only have my experience as a Jacobite customer, but it seems intuitively obvious that when you have several hundred passengers arrive twice a day, and who have a couple of hours to kill, most of whom will also be hungry, with not much else to do, the shops and restaurants are going to benefit hugely.

In contrast, ferry traffic will tend to be just passing through. In one direction they will typically just drive off and get on with their journey, and in the other will arrive in good time, but not hours in advance.

Is it a majority of the tourist spend? I don’t know, but it’s clear that it would have had a huge impact on a small town that would have been expecting several thousand visitors a week to spend their tourist pounds there and geared up (eg staffing) accordingly.
 

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