WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[31160]

Yep I can remember one tour from Paddington that had no brake coach in the formation instead a first aid box and a few other bits and bobs were just brought along by the guard who just plomped them down in a bay of four and just sat down in the bay opposite when not dispatching,and the amount of times we had WCRC stock without lights can't be counted it got so prevalent that at least one tour operator brought their own emergency lights for when,not if, they went down

 

[paul1609]

Yep I can remember one tour from Paddington that had no brake coach in the formation instead a first aid box and a few other bits and bobs were just brought along by the guard who just plomped them down in a bay of four and just sat down in the bay opposite when not dispatching,and the amount of times we had WCRC stock without lights can't be counted it got so prevalent that at least one tour operator brought their own emergency lights for when,not if, they went down

To be honest no or very dim lights was very much a feature of the MK1 and Early Mk2 coaches in BR service. The Portsmouth FC Special Trains of my youth were sets borrowed from the Portsmouth_ Cardiff service. They were very much at the end of their life and there was no lighting on the return trip when the trains were stopped in stations and for loco/crew changeovers etc. The lighting would spring back in to life at around 20 mph when the dynamo kicked back in. Theres been whole conferences in the heritage sector about trying to improve them and I think thats only really been achieved with LED lighting of various types.

 

[Towers]

As against real ones

I thought that!

Be handy for WCRC if they sold real wands!

Which lead to a major change in safety culture.

You’re rather destroying your own argument by quoting Southall.

I saw “Southall” and thought initially it was a reference to WCRC’s Southall depot, which of course was another example of an appalling safety culture. Pretty much nearly condemned, wasn’t it? ISTR no running water and various other significant safety breaches.

Again; they do themselves absolutely no favours whatsoever, a long history of disregarding safety requirements and then, in the case of CDL, arguing the toss when they get caught. “P*ss*d on their chips” comes to mind.

 

[Mountain Man]

Wait till they start coming for the preserved railways and after that the likes of Ravenglass and Dungeness. How does the saying end, and then they came for me.

Where is a shred of evidence to back that up?

 

[Darandio]

Wait till they start coming for the preserved railways and after that the likes of Ravenglass and Dungeness. How does the saying end, and then they came for me.

Have they got a toxic safety culture too?

 

[Towers]

Where is a shred of evidence to back that up?

It’s been pointed out already, but the irony here is that it would be the likes of WCRC having an incident which would be most likely to result in the authorities actually coming for the heritage movement, on the main line railway at least. Suggestions that basic safety precautions should be disregarded are only harming the long term propsects of heritage operation!

 

[Bikeman78]

Which companies have had a problem fitting it?


Unsafe may be overstating it but certainly has too great a risk attached to it - the droplight in particular being a problem as well as doors opening outwards.
Multiple incidents of heads striking hard things outside the train and doors swinging foul of the adjacent line show its not a hypothetical risk either.

I don't really mind either way. Been on the Jacobite once, never likely to do it again. It amuses me how wound up people are getting about it.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm afraid a cavalier and arrogant attitude to the issue by WCRC has come home to roost. I hope the operation, or something similar, can resume, because it proved to be very successful for a long time. The route is so well suited to it, having a popular entertainment franchise connection, superb scenery, an accommodating normal service schedule and a length of journey that so many consider ideal for their day out.

 

[Gaz67]

Have they got a toxic safety culture too?

Well my point was a more general one regarding the use of mk1 and mk 2 coaching stock in original condition. A lot of people on here seem to have an axe to grind against WCR, I would say travelling on the Jacobite is going to be far safer than being jam packed on a 4 car voyager between Sheffield and Birmingham or anywhere on the XC network, what are the ORR doing about that ?. Talking of the Jacobite specifically can anybody enlighten us as to how many reported incidents of doors being opened while the train is not platformed, surely this is at the crux of the matter, maybe I have missed it in this thread but I am genuinely interested to know if this has been a common occurrence on the Jacobite.

 

[craigybagel]

Well my point was a more general one regarding the use of mk1 and mk 2 coaching stock in original condition. A lot of people on here seem to have an axe to grind against WCR, I would say travelling on the Jacobite is going to be far safer than being jam packed on a 4 car voyager between Sheffield and Birmingham or anywhere on the XC network, what are the ORR doing about that ?. Talking of the Jacobite specifically can anybody enlighten us as to how many reported incidents of doors being opened while the train is not platformed, surely this is at the crux of the matter, maybe I have missed it in this thread but I am genuinely interested to know if this has been a common occurrence on the Jacobite.

How many times have XC been banned from running trains on the network?

In any case, I know you're trying to be specific to the Jacobite - but this issue isn't limited to the Jacobite, it's just the most high profile victim.

 

[Carntyne]

Well my point was a more general one regarding the use of mk1 and mk 2 coaching stock in original condition. A lot of people on here seem to have an axe to grind against WCR, I would say travelling on the Jacobite is going to be far safer than being jam packed on a 4 car voyager between Sheffield and Birmingham or anywhere on the XC network, what are the ORR doing about that ?. Talking of the Jacobite specifically can anybody enlighten us as to how many reported incidents of doors being opened while the train is not platformed, surely this is at the crux of the matter, maybe I have missed it in this thread but I am genuinely interested to know if this has been a common occurrence on the Jacobite.

The crux of the matter is WCRC broke their own agreed mitigations for not having CDL with the ORR. More than once.

If they're breaking the rules on things like that, what else are they up to when people aren't looking?

 

[43096]

Well my point was a more general one regarding the use of mk1 and mk 2 coaching stock in original condition. A lot of people on here seem to have an axe to grind against WCR, I would say travelling on the Jacobite is going to be far safer than being jam packed on a 4 car voyager between Sheffield and Birmingham or anywhere on the XC network, what are the ORR doing about that ?. Talking of the Jacobite specifically can anybody enlighten us as to how many reported incidents of doors being opened while the train is not platformed, surely this is at the crux of the matter, maybe I have missed it in this thread but I am genuinely interested to know if this has been a common occurrence on the Jacobite.

ORR issued a prohibition notice (https://orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.win...st-Railway-Company-Ltd-prohibition-notice.pdf) last year to WCRC for non-compliance with WCRC's own policy/procedure for door operation on the Jacobite. The key text being:

You are failing to ensure the health and safety of your passengers and crew, thus putting them at risk of serious personal injury, as you are not implementing the controls identified in your risk assessment for rolling stock fitted with secondary door locking, in that:
1) Passengers are being told by train crew to operate the secondary door locks;
2) Stewards are not preventing passengers from operating the secondary door locks;
3) Stewards are not preventing passengers from leaning on train doors or from leaning out of the open droplight windows in train doors of moving trains;
and 4) Secondary door locks are not in the ‘locked’ position or are being opened by train crew before the train is stationary; Therefore, creating a risk of persons falling from a train or being struck by infrastructure being passed by the moving train.

 

[Nym]

How many times have XC been banned from running trains on the network?

In any case, I know you're trying to be specific to the Jacobite - but this issue isn't limited to the Jacobite, it's just the most high profile victim.

How many times has a whole brand new fleet of trains ordered by the DfT been banned from running on the network?

 

[Gaz67]

How many times have XC been banned from running trains on the network?

In any case, I know you're trying to be specific to the Jacobite - but this issue isn't limited to the Jacobite, it's just the most high profile victim.

No mainline operators are ever going to be banned from operating regardless of what they get up to, outfits like WCR are easy meat for the ORR, by the way I am in no way defending WCR previous misdemeanors, the TPWS isolation incident was shocking, all I am asking for is the evidence based facts that have led to the ORR insisting on CDL on the jacobite stock, also what other operators are affected by this?

 

[Bill57p9]

WCRC have had 2 slam door incidents in recent years, at least 1 of which would have been prevented with CDL. Neither were on the Jacobite however WCRC haven't applied for an exemption for just the Jacobite: they have applied for an exemption to operate up to 95mph without CDL.

As has been discussed in this thread, other operators have been affected:

• LSL have complied with the regulations
• SRPS have (temporarily?) withdrawn from mainline stock
• NYMR are now limited to 25mph and only between Grosmont and Whitby
• I believe Belmond have an action plan in place

ORR have a list of exemptions in place here: https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-com...lling-stock/mark-1-and-hinged-door-exemptions

 

[anothertyke]

Vintage Trains, SRPS, Belmond. Indirectly Riviera because they probably thought fitting CDL to Mk 1s for spot hire was not cost effective.

 

[craigybagel]

How many times has a whole brand new fleet of trains ordered by the DfT been banned from running on the network?

What's that got to do with anything? That's not the fault of the TOCs

No mainline operators are ever going to be banned from operating regardless of what they get up to, outfits like WCR are easy meat for the ORR,

They've made it easy to be a target of the ORR through their own actions. If a mainline operator had so many instances of breaking the rules, especially in proportion to the small amount of services WCRC run, you can bet they'd be shut down!

by the way I am in no way defending WCR previous misdemeanors, the TPWS isolation incident was shocking, all I am asking for is the evidence based facts that have led to the ORR insisting on CDL on the jacobite stock, also what other operators are affected by this

Others have already supplied earlier in the thread the figures to show that yes CDL really does make a difference.

The rules apply to everyone. ORR have made it clear that the exemptions would only continue for so long, and that they expect operators to either comply, or show that they have a plan in place to be able to comply within a reasonable time period. Not only have WCRC failed to do so, they've also failed to comply with terms of the exemption they previously had.

 

[cce]

One has to wonder how quick enthusiasts would be to defend WCRC if they were committing some breach with sprinters instead of 'proper train' mk1s

 

[12LDA28C]

No mainline operators are ever going to be banned from operating regardless of what they get up to, outfits like WCR are easy meat for the ORR, by the way I am in no way defending WCR previous misdemeanors, the TPWS isolation incident was shocking, all I am asking for is the evidence based facts that have led to the ORR insisting on CDL on the jacobite stock, also what other operators are affected by this?

ORR are not insisting on CDL being fitted 'on the Jacobite stock', the requirement for CDL applies to anyone who operates passenger trains anywhere on the main line with slam door stock. That's why Chiltern had to fit it on their 'bubble cars' 20 years ago, that's why Hastings Diesels have had to fit it to their main line registered DEMU and it's why all charter operators are required to fit it to their slam door stock. WCRC is not being treated any differently, the rules apply to everyone.

 

[Essan]

Hasnt it been started by the propreitor of Haggard Alley, a Harry Potteresque establishment in Mallaigretailling fake wands etc.?

Yes. This doesn't just affect WCRC - there are many small businesses impacted by their refusal to abide by the rules.

 

[Gaz67]

ORR are not insisting on CDL being fitted 'on the Jacobite stock', the requirement for CDL applies to anyone who operates passenger trains anywhere on the main line with slam door stock. That's why Chiltern had to fit it on their 'bubble cars' 20 years ago, that's why Hastings Diesels have had to fit it to their main line registered DEMU and it's why all charter operators are required to fit it to their slam door stock. WCRC is not being treated any differently, the rules apply to everyone.

Well it's not looking good for the Jacobite this year then which will be a massive hit for Mallaig in particular, real shame. Did the incidents involving non CDL slammers result in serious injuries or deaths or were they near misses?. Like I said earlier my main concern is for the preserved lines, at the moment running at 25 mph is acceptable for non CDL stock, but for how long

 

[Darandio]

Well it's not looking good for the Jacobite this year then which will be a massive hit for Mallaig in particular, real shame. Did the incidents involving non CDL slammers result in serious injuries or deaths or were they near misses?. Like I said earlier my main concern is for the preserved lines, at the moment running at 25 mph is acceptable for non CDL stock, but for how long

Not sure how many times it has to be explained that they aren't going after preserved lines nor is this some kind of precursor for it.

WCRC repeatedly breached the terms of their exemption, that's why we're at the current situation. If they hadn't breached the terms then the Jacobite would have been running and small businesses relying on it wouldn't be worrying about their future. WCRC are the cause of the problem.

 

[Gaz67]

Not sure how many times it has to be explained that they aren't going after preserved lines nor is this some kind of precursor for it.

WCRC repeatedly breached the terms of their exemption, that's why we're at the current situation. If they hadn't breached the terms then the Jacobite would have been running and small businesses relying on it wouldn't be worrying about their future. WCRC are the cause of the problem.

This is just my opinion thanks, is that ok. It's getting on for 20 years since the ORR set about getting CDL fitted to heritage stock on the mainline and here we are. It appears to me that either the ORR don't believe this is a big safety issue or that they are totally inept at forcing operators to abide by it, which is it? Whatever direction you come from the ORR has failed miserably and appears on this issue to be not fit for purpose.

 

[D365]

It appears to me that either the ORR don't believe this is a big safety issue or that they are totally inept at forcing operators to abide by it, which is it? Whatever direction you come from the ORR has failed miserably and appears on this issue to be not fit for purpose.

Not sure how ORR has ”failed miserably” - have you ignored the message of the very post that you are replying to?

 

[Gaz67]

Not sure how ORR has ”failed miserably” - have you ignored the message of the very post that you are replying to?

So 20 years to fail to fully enforce what the ORR deems to be a safety critical mod is not failure, what kind of timescale are you thinking is acceptable on this?

 

[D365]

So 20 years to fail to fully enforce what the ORR deems to be a safety critical mod is not failure, what kind of timescale are you thinking is acceptable on this?

From my understanding - ORR proposed a stop-gap mitigation, WCRC agreed, but breached the terms of this stop-gap. And has made no visible progress towards fitting CDL, which was always going to be require eventually.

 

[Gaz67]

From my understanding - ORR proposed a stop-gap mitigation, WCRC agreed, but breached the terms of this stop-gap. And has made no visible progress towards fitting CDL, which was always going to be require eventually.

Yes , the manned vestibules with the small secondary lock on the door. Look WCR has rightly took a kicking on this, stop gap mitigation 20 years down the line, come on. ORR has massively failed on the implementation of this and deserves as much and probably more criticism than WCR.

 

[Virgin Voyager]

I believe WCR have recently fitted CDL to their Northern Belle set

 

[Gaz67]

I believe WCR have recently fitted CDL to their Northern Belle set

According to their website they have only cancelled to 1 April and are in discussions, think there might be a positive outcome to this regarding the Jacobite.

 

[12C]

Have the ORR actually got a definition of what “CDL” is exactly? Has it got to involve a physical lock? Is is explicitly forbidden that secondary locks cannot be manually operated by stewards under the ‘central’ instruction of the guard?

For example, 2nd generation multiple unit sliding doors are not ‘locked’ per se, unless they are manually locked out of use with a carriage key. They are just held shut with air pressure. It’s quite possible to pull them open in motion if you’re strong enough, although this would trigger an emergency brake application. It’s also possible to open them, easily, at any moment using the emergency door release handle which any passenger has access to, placed above the door. Any passenger could, if they wish, operate this handle and open a door in traffic, which would be easier to do than lowering a droplight and opening the handle on the outside. People generally don’t, as there is a sign warning them of big fines if used inappropriately, as there could be for slam door stock.