WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[greatkingrat]

Sorry to jump on this thread, but I’m wondering if WCR committed fraud by selling tickets when it was clearly uncertain if this service would run. I know if I had booked, I would’ve needed to get to Fort William, by rail ( I don’t drive ) I could cancel tickets and get charged a £10 admin fee, but would potentially lose any money paid for a hotel. As I said just wondering. Thanks Phil

If that is fraud then many TOCs are committing fraud hundreds of times a day!

 

[Gaz67]

The way WCRC can be more pro-enthusiast is to have a safety culture that demonstrates Heritage and Excursion railtours can operate perfectly safely as part of the national network timetable. Giving a load of 47s a lick of paint and having a smart museum isn't going to mean very much if they continue to set alarm bells ringing with the safety authorities. I'd hazard a guess that having trains run at proper speeds is what most enthusiasts want to experience, and would happily trade some tatty paintwork and a non-public depot for having mainline heritage running.

Pretty sure we can have both [speed and paint], LSL manage it. A pair of heavyweight 37s or 33s in authentic liveries , what diesel fan wouldnt want that, where did I say any of this is part of a trade. I and many others would love to see steamtown re emerge in some form, never went as a kid as Dinting was our go to place, loved it. Dont think operating safely is pro- enthusiast either , this backs up what i said about the need for WCR to build bridges, including the dilapidated one to allow access to their site.

 

[D6130]

Pretty sure we can have both [speed and paint], LSL manage it. A pair of heavyweight 37s or 33s in authentic liveries , what diesel fan wouldnt want that, where did I say any of this is part of a trade. I and many others would love to see steamtown re emerge in some form, never went as a kid as Dinting was our go to place, loved it. Dont think operating safely is pro- enthusiast either , this backs up what i said about the need for WCR to build bridges, including the dilapidated one to allow access to their site.

In the unlikely event of Steamtown ever reopening to the public as a museum, not only would they have to restore the dilapidated footbridge, but they would also have to keep visitors well away from the crumbling coaling tower and ash hopper, both of which I am told are suffering from Stage 4 concrete cancer.

 

[zwk500]

Pretty sure we can have both [speed and paint], LSL manage it. A pair of heavyweight 37s or 33s in authentic liveries , what diesel fan wouldnt want that, where did I say any of this is part of a trade.

LSL manage it because they're flush with cash. WCRC have a rather different business philosophy.

Dont think operating safely is pro- enthusiast either

Is a word missing out of this? Or are you suggesting that enthusiasts are in reality bloodthirsty and determined to see limbs hacked off?

 

[Gaz67]

In the unlikely event of Steamtown ever reopening to the public as a museum, not only would they have to restore the dilapidated footbridge, but they would also have to keep visitors well away from the crumbling coaling tower and ash hopper, both of which I am told are suffering from Stage 4 concrete cancer.

Thats a shame , iconic structures.

LSL manage it because they're flush with cash. WCRC have a rather different business philosophy.

Is a word missing out of this? Or are you suggesting that enthusiasts are in reality bloodthirsty and determined to see limbs hacked off?

I may be wrong but I was under the impression the diesels were painted maroon to match the coaching stock on steam hauled trips, not as a cost saver. As for safety, well thats a given , hardly pro- enthusiasts [the irony of this on this thread is not lost on me].

 

[sycamores]

Thats a shame , iconic structures.


I may be wrong but I was under the impression the diesels were painted maroon to match the coaching stock on steam hauled trips, not as a cost saver. As for safety, well thats a given , hardly pro- enthusiasts [the irony of this on this thread is not lost on me].

Thought it stemmed back to the Royal Scotsman contract - with "plumb" coloured carriages. Having all locos in the same livery maximised flexibility. A bit like the dedicated locos for the Northern Belle being in "Belle" colours, although there's more fleet locos to choose from nowadays. Some locos now carry "heritage colours", but I believe that's the result of private funding and sponsorship etc...

Just my thoughts!

 

[Trackman]

I know I'm a bit a late in the day, but how much did this cost WCRC to take it to the high court?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

LSL manage it because they're flush with cash. WCRC have a rather different business philosophy.

A quick look on Companycheck shows that as of their respective most recent reporting periods, WCRC have twice as much cash in hand as LSL - although LSL's net worth is nearly double that of WCRC.

Links and screenshots below. Can't really quote from them properly ( sorry mods ) as it's in tabular form - but have tried a summary quote below the screenshots.

WEST COAST RAILWAY COMPANY LTD. Free company accounts direct from Companies House. Download Accounts FREE

Free company accounts for WEST COAST RAILWAY COMPANY LTD including 5 years graphed cash at bank, assets, liabilities and net worth, complete financial table with FREE CSV export, plus download Companies House accounts documents FREE.

companycheck.co.uk

LOCOMOTIVE SERVICES LIMITED. Free company accounts direct from Companies House. Download Accounts FREE

Free company accounts for LOCOMOTIVE SERVICES LIMITED including 5 years graphed cash at bank, assets, liabilities and net worth, complete financial table with FREE CSV export, plus download Companies House accounts documents FREE.

companycheck.co.uk

WEST COAST RAILWAY COMPANY LTD Credit Report

Key Financials​

Cash
£6m
22.%
Net Worth
£5m
52.%
Total Current Assets
£9m
20.%
Total Current Liabilities
£4m

LOCOMOTIVE SERVICES LIMITED Credit Report

Key Financials​

Cash
£3m
14.%
Net Worth
£8m
16.%
Total Current Assets
£4m
28.%
Total Current Liabilities
£5m
80.%

 

[Bikeman78]

This area on a 150/1 (the only 150s where the crew door isn't interlocked) is not accessible to the public.

If you've ever tried it (might have as a kid, ahem) you can only crack open classic air operated sliding doors. It's enough to break interlock, but you can't get them open enough to fall out, maybe only a few inches. No more risk than an open hopper window. The reason for them being like this is to allow a trapped limb, jacket or piece of luggage to be pulled out.

Way back when I've been on a 150 in Bolton when it started moving with all doors open, but that was downhill (no power) and in the days when it was just power interlock, now there's brake interlock too.

The one I was on, the kids got the doors about two foot apart. Perhaps it was faulty. Aren't they simply held shut by air pressure?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one I was on, the kids got the doors about two foot apart. Perhaps it was faulty. Aren't they simply held shut by air pressure?

I've pulled this out to another thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...otection-if-any-there-is-to-stop-this.264993/

 

[12LDA28C]

How is exactly disagreeing about the need for something but still complying when legally forced bullying? And where exactly have WCRC played the victim, I must have missed that press release

WCRC certainly seem to be portraying themselves as the victim of the big bad nasty ORR who won't let them run their Harry Potter train which is essential to the local economy in the West Highlands, apparently.

 

[43096]

WCRC certainly seem to be portraying themselves as the victim of the big bad nasty ORR who won't let them run their Harry Potter train which is essential to the local economy in the West Highlands, apparently.

It bears repeating that this is not just about the "Harry Potter train" trundling around at 40mph in the Scottish highlands, but also their other charters, running at up to 100mph on main lines.

 

[renegademaster]

WCRC certainly seem to be portraying themselves as the victim of the big bad nasty ORR who won't let them run their Harry Potter train which is essential to the local economy in the West Highlands, apparently.

It's making the argument why it doesn't agree with the decision, that's not playing the victim.

 

[12LDA28C]

Finally on WCR it is clear they have very few supporters on here if any, going forward if there is a going forward , they need to be more pro enthusiast maybe looking at developing Carnforth as a visitor attraction and certainly start repainting their diesel fleet. The last point is unrelated to the current issue obviously but going forward they need to start building bridges in my humble opinion.

I'm perfectly pro-WCRC, I know some of their staff and they're all thoroughly good people who take pride in their job. Unfortunately the chaps at the 'sharp end' are rather let down by the attitude of those right at the top of the organisation. I'd much rather see WCRC continue operating trains on the main line in accordance with safety regulations as other charter operators are required to do rather than be prevented from doing so, purely down to the bloody-mindedness of its senior management.

LSL manage it because they're flush with cash. WCRC have a rather different business philosophy.

You think WCRC's chairman is short of cash!? Even not taking into account his personal wealth, a quick bit of Googling suggests that in 2023 the WCRC bank balance stood at just over £6 million, see here: https://companycheck.co.uk/director/903879672/WILLIAM--SMITH/financials

It bears repeating that this is not just about the "Harry Potter train" trundling around at 40mph in the Scottish highlands, but also their other charters, running at up to 100mph on main lines.

I'm very well aware of that, but WCRC don't seem to be kicking up much fuss about the charter side of things, having just drafted in a set of CDL-fitted Mk2s to fulfil current charter obligations. However they are claiming specifically how not running the Jacobite will affect the local economy in Mallaig.

 

[43096]

I'm very well aware of that, but WCRC don't seem to be kicking up much fuss about the charter side of things, having just drafted in a set of CDL-fitted Mk2s to fulfil current charter obligations. However they are claiming specifically how not running the Jacobite will affect the local economy in Mallaig.

Of course they are talking about the Jacobite, because that's the highest profile bit of the operation. It's also the most profitable - and the profits accrued over the last several years could easily pay for CDL fitting several times over.

 

[12LDA28C]

Of course they are talking about the Jacobite, because that's the highest profile bit of the operation. It's also the most profitable - and the profits accrued over the last several years could easily pay for CDL fitting several times over.

Indeed, as their accounts clearly demonstrate.

 

[Wolfie]

It's making the argument why it doesn't agree with the decision, that's not playing the victim.

Who cares if they agree or not? They spunked away a shedload of money in a nugatory Court action. The Court clearly did agree with the decision. Given that there is no way that ORR is going to back down WCRC can flap their gums all they want....

 

[zwk500]

You think WCRC's chairman is short of cash!?

As you're now the second person to object to my comment, you might note I never said WCRC didn't have money. I said they had a different business philosophy - i.e. an aversion to spending it.

I admit my comment was poorly phrased though.

 

[12LDA28C]

As you're now the second person to object to my comment, you might note I never said WCRC didn't have money. I said they had a different business philosophy - i.e. an aversion to spending it.

The implication was that LSL are 'flush with cash' and WCRC aren't. Therefore the fact that LSL have plenty of cash is irrelevant, as so do WCRC. But you're certainly correct in that WCRC don't appear to want to spend any, despite the millions in the bank.

 

[Meerkat]

I'm thinking that in many industries WCRC's behaviour and record would get them a full audit.
Do ORR do such things, and how would WCRC fare if ORR turned up en masse to inspect everything, check all procedures, and interview all the staff as to what the procedures are and whether they actually know all the things they are signed off as knowing?
What would the owner's full on toys out of the pram actions be - sell the company or would he be so bitter he would start scrapping everything?

 

[theblackwatch]

I said they had a different business philosophy - i.e. an aversion to spending it.

"Every penny's a prisoner" was one quote a heard many years ago when describing the Scarborough farmer!

 

[Belfastmarty]

"Every penny's a prisoner" was one quote a heard many years ago when describing the Scarborough farmer!

And as an approach to business that's valid, up to a point. Some organisations for example Ryanair make a virtue of it. But ultimately *some* expenditure is necessary to keep your business afloat day-to-day, especially what it comes to safety or actions mandated by a regulator. You don't see Ryanair refusing to implement recommendations by the CAA.

 

[Wolfie]

And as an approach to business that's valid, up to a point. Some organisations for example Ryanair make a virtue of it. But ultimately *some* expenditure is necessary to keep your business afloat day-to-day, especially what it comes to safety or actions mandated by a regulator. You don't see Ryanair refusing to implement recommendations by the CAA.

I agree the main thrust of your post but would note that Ryanair as an Irish company falls under the auspices of the Irish Aviation Authority not the CAA.

 

[renegademaster]

When WCRC stewards got caught out not following the door protocols properly, did they get forewarned and a chance to adapt their internal protocols so the rules are actually followed (like having a steward of stewards roaming about making sure everyone gets in the right place) or was it only something they heard about after in the decision to revoke their exemption. When they got caught fiddling with AWS, while ORR did suspend them, it wasn't permanent they ultimately had the chance to adjust and not throw the baby with bathwater entirety. As far as I'm aware their hasn't been a loco related incidents since

 

[D6130]

As far as I'm aware their hasn't been a loco related incidents since

Was there not an incident involving a Black 5 at Doncaster a short time afterwards....or was that before Wootton Bassett?

 

[12LDA28C]

When WCRC stewards got caught out not following the door protocols properly, did they get forewarned and a chance to adapt their internal protocols so the rules are actually followed (like having a steward of stewards roaming about making sure everyone gets in the right place) or was it only something they heard about after in the decision to revoke their exemption. When they got caught fiddling with AWS, while ORR did suspend them, it wasn't permanent they ultimately had the chance to adjust and not throw the baby with bathwater entirety. As far as I'm aware their hasn't been a loco related incidents since

There was also the incident at Bath where a WCRC charter train was moved along the platform with doors open on 13th April 2016 which was very soon after its month-long ban from the main line.

 

[zwk500]

As far as I'm aware their hasn't been a loco related incidents since

I'm aware of an incident in 2019 (I think) that resulted in permission to use the Goods Loops at Hellifield being withdrawn at short notice. Not sure if it counts as 'loco-related' but it was certainly 'safety-culture related'!

 

[paul1609]

I agree the main thrust of your post but would note that Ryanair as an Irish company falls under the auspices of the Irish Aviation Authority not the CAA.

Not Ryanair UK which holds a CAA operators license.

 

[Bikeman78]

There was also the incident at Bath where a WCRC charter train was moved along the platform with doors open on 13th April 2016 which was very soon after its month-long ban from the main line.

What were the circumstances? The last train along the Winbledon to West Croydon line did similar. Pulled away from a red signal with numerous doors open and lots of people on the platform. I must say that I find incidents like Wootton Bassett a much greater concern that CDL, or the lack of it. The use of doors is entirely within my control. What the train crew do is not.

 

[renegademaster]

There was also the incident at Bath where a WCRC charter train was moved along the platform with doors open on 13th April 2016 which was very soon after its month-long ban from the main line.

Which CDL wouldn't have prevented. Does sound like the guard/stewards are more an issue than CDL or the lack off