WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[Wolfie]

The fact they call it a "debate" tells you everything you need to know about their attitude to safety compliance - they treat it as some sort of "nice to have" or something to be negotiated over.

Indeed. They conspicuously seem to fail to understand the role of a regulator.

 

[Nym]

I would however, question if the “CDL” systems fitted to other Mk.1 carriages would actually pass a proper safety assessment today…

 

[zwk500]

I would however, question if the “CDL” systems fitted to other Mk.1 carriages would actually pass a proper safety assessment today…

Well, the ORR seem perfectly happy with them

 

[12C]

Well, the ORR seem perfectly happy with them

For now…

 

[6Gman]

Well my point was a more general one regarding the use of mk1 and mk 2 coaching stock in original condition. A lot of people on here seem to have an axe to grind against WCR, I would say travelling on the Jacobite is going to be far safer than being jam packed on a 4 car voyager between Sheffield and Birmingham or anywhere on the XC network, what are the ORR doing about that ?. Talking of the Jacobite specifically can anybody enlighten us as to how many reported incidents of doors being opened while the train is not platformed, surely this is at the crux of the matter, maybe I have missed it in this thread but I am genuinely interested to know if this has been a common occurrence on the Jacobite.

Waiting for an incident to happen before addressing risk is the approach that gave us the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster, the Bradford football stadium fire, and similar incidents.
Plenty of people have fallen from trains. People have also been maimed by doors swinging open in stations.

 

[Gaz67]

Waiting for an incident to happen before addressing risk is the approach that gave us the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster, the Bradford football stadium fire, and similar incidents.
Plenty of people have fallen from trains. People have also been maimed by doors swinging open in stations.

Well we still have bow doors on ferries so not sure what your point on that is and I'm not sure where the Bradford fire fits into all this?. My point is that swinging doors on 1000s of carriages in daily use , mainly the southern, with people desperate to get off at say Waterloo and head for the City line is a different beast to what we have now, the 2005 report into this is now largely irrelevant in my opinion. WCR running on the line to Mallaig is as benign as you can get in all of this , sick of the overreactions to all this to be honest, wonder how some people on here manage to leave their bedrooms to be honest. If WCR were to stopped from running it should of been the TPWS incident in my opinion, this whole episode leading to the devastating effect on the tourism in that area is a joke, in my humble opinion.

 

[6Gman]

Well we still have bow doors on ferries so not sure what your point on that is and I'm not sure where the Bradford fire fits into all this?. My point is that swinging doors on 1000s of carriages in daily use , mainly the southern, with people desperate to get off at say Waterloo and head for the City line is a different beast to what we have now, the 2005 report into this is now largely irrelevant in my opinion. WCR running on the line to Mallaig is as benign as you can get in all of this , sick of the overreactions to all this to be honest, wonder how some people on here manage to leave their bedrooms to be honest. If WCR were to stopped from running it should of been the TPWS incident in my opinion, this whole episode leading to the devastating effect on the tourism in that area is a joke, in my humble opinion.

Bow doors AIUI now have interlocking, and stadium licensing requires fire risk to be assessed. That's where they fit into all this.

And if you are going to have safety rules they should be consistent.

If tourism in the area takes a hit that's down to WCR not ORR. They've had plenty of time to meet the requirements.

 

[Gaz67]

Bow doors AIUI now have interlocking, and stadium licensing requires fire risk to be assessed. That's where they fit into all this.

And if you are going to have safety rules they should be consistent.

If tourism in the area takes a hit that's down to WCR not ORR. They've had plenty of time to meet the requirements.

There is no magic interlock with bow doors and engines, some ferries still back away with the visor open due to clearance issues, bad example to use, still don't see how a fire at a football match is relevant also, anyway we shall have to agree to disagree on this, night night.

 

[AM9]

Almost no one I suspect. Isn't that the point? But even if they sent out a description to all ticket holders of how the carriages are less safe than modern carriages, I reckon most people would still go ahead and travel. Plenty of other day to day activities carry a greater risk.

Any greater risks taken with other day to day activities are totally irrelevent, - the ORR, the HSE and indeed this thread, is concerned about the compliance of WCR with a legal ruling on safety of a public rail service.
Equally, there would be no discernable boycott if the train was formed of safer compliant coaches, e.g. MK2s with CDL (thereby reducing the need for stewards in every coach). It's only the few rail enthusiasts who obsess about details like MK1s 'looking more appropriate' behind steam locos. So they should just get on and toe the safety line and run safer trains for the great majority of their customers. It would be much more profitable than contiunual failed legal challenges combined with no income from that service whilst it is banned from the public railway.

 

[renegademaster]

If the stock was irrelevant people would use the scotrail service a lot more

 

[Bikeman78]

Any greater risks taken with other day to day activities are totally irrelevent, - the ORR, the HSE and indeed this thread, is concerned about the compliance of WCR with a legal ruling on safety of a public rail service.
Equally, there would be no discernable boycott if the train was formed of safer compliant coaches, e.g. MK2s with CDL (thereby reducing the need for stewards in every coach). It's only the few rail enthusiasts who obsess about details like MK1s 'looking more appropriate' behind steam locos. So they should just get on and toe the safety line and run safer trains for the great majority of their customers. It would be much more profitable than contiunual failed legal challenges combined with no income from that service whilst it is banned from the public railway.

I agree that WCR should stick to the rules or cease running. However, you are the one that stated the public would not accept the greater risk. Clearly that is not the case. In any case, the risk for the vast majority that use the doors sensibly is pretty much zero.

 

[Nym]

Well, the ORR seem perfectly happy with them

The ORR are not an engineering organisation, and as such I feel is potentially not capable of making a suitable assessment of the equipment.

The ORR simply will look to see, "CDL Fitted" and then issue a tick. The effectiveness of such a system when installed under the previous regulations and audits may not pass the more modern safety requirements we have under the CSM-RA and other relevant processes, indeed one would be hard pressed to find an RSSB, EN, UIC or other relevant standard or specification for CDL to work against, so instead of "It was fine before so it's fine now" for an openable door, now we have an "It was fine before so it's fine now" assessment of a CDL system, that many will likely be complacent and complicit in their proper function, when this may not be the case at all.

Note, this does not defend not having CDL. This is to merely question it's effectiveness in the modern railway, particularly 'legacy' systems employed by other heritage operators.

 

[AM9]

I agree that WCR should stick to the rules or cease running. However, you are the one that stated the public would not accept the greater risk. Clearly that is not the case. In any case, the risk for the vast majority that use the doors sensibly is pretty much zero.

If the public was suitably informed, they might take a more caution approach to WCR's cavalier attitude to safety. Given the choice between Mk1 non-compliant and MK 2 compliant coaches I think the majority of non-enthusiast customers would opt for the latter. As it is, the ORR are ensuring that choice isn't put to uninformed passengers on the mainline.
In addition, the external risks of unprotected slam doors on passengers of normal service trains and those on stations are being protected.

 

[SteveM70]

If the stock was irrelevant people would use the scotrail service a lot more

Nonsense

Firstly, if you asked 100 passengers why they were on the Jacobite I’d be astonished if a single one said “because of the carriages”. Steam engine, the view, Glenfinnan, Harry Potter all yes, but the carriages? Really?

Secondly, in the Harry Potter films the train is compartment stock whilst WCR use open carriages, so anyone who miraculously did travel wanting the Potter experience would be disappointed

 

[Robin Procter]

I have to admit that I find the whole thing utterly bizarre, and I’m sure the previous 20 pages have differing views on this.

Here on the Isle of Man the government-run railway has slam-door stock without CDL. The nod to modern safety standards is a sign that reminds people that if they stick their head out of the door or open the door when moving then it might hurt a bit.

It’s long been obvious that the ORR simply don’t want charter trains on the main line network. Looks like they’re inching ever closer to achieving their aim.

.... I agree! People can argue until the cows come home about common sense versus the overthinking bureaucracy of ORR. All this stuff about carriage doors isn't a problem on heritage railways. People are injured and/or die every day while pursuing their interests - So what! Living Life is Fatal.

If ORR truly are against having charter trains on the mainline network, then praise to WCRC for standing up to them in every way they can find.

 

[YorkshireBear]

.... I agree! People can argue until the cows come home about common sense versus the overthinking bureaucracy of ORR. All this stuff about carriage doors isn't a problem on heritage railways. People are injured and/or die every day while pursuing their interests - So what! Living Life is Fatal.

If ORR truly are against having charter trains on the mainline network, then praise to WCRC for standing up to them in every way they can find.

So what living life is fatal is not the attitude society expects these days. And that is the view of wider society not just the ORR.

There is no point pretending it should be. This is not a conspiracy from the ORR. They expect us to keep the people paying us to travel safe, that is in no way unreasonable.

 

[31160]

I find it unbelievable that people are still lining up to defend these unsafe clowns, I wonder how many would if they didn't use steam so much

 

[renegademaster]

Nonsense

Firstly, if you asked 100 passengers why they were on the Jacobite I’d be astonished if a single one said “because of the carriages”. Steam engine, the view, Glenfinnan, Harry Potter all yes, but the carriages? Really?

Secondly, in the Harry Potter films the train is compartment stock whilst WCR use open carriages, so anyone who miraculously did travel wanting the Potter experience would be disappointed

Plus west coast run lots of enthusiast focused railtours , and having been on them , plenty of the passengers are moaning about the "coffins" they have to use from now on

 

[Gunslinger]

Plus west coast run lots of enthusiast focused railtours , and having been on them , plenty of the passengers are moaning about the "coffins" they have to use from now on

Having been on one of these tours with Mk1 stock, you have to be an enthusiast to do it because the conditions certainly in the Standard no-frills class are pretty dire. Let's face it the real money is in the Dining options and the punters for this don't run around sticking their heads out of windows or indeed opening said windows to let in smoke in tunnels.
This stock has seen better days and I suspect its general use on the 100mph railway is coming to an end. That is not to say there can't be exceptions for very restricted self contained routes like the West Highland and Grosmont-Whitby, possibly even Birmingham-Stratford.

 

[Robin Procter]

So what living life is fatal is not the attitude society expects these days. And that is the view of wider society not just the ORR.

There is no point pretending it should be. This is not a conspiracy from the ORR. They expect us to keep the people paying us to travel safe, that is in no way unreasonable.

.... Frankly, current "society" in particular has all sorts of expectations but it doesn't mean that everyone has to follow like sheep what society says. Society is heavily influenced by the media and the majority of people weakly allowing themselves to be influenced.

I find it unbelievable that people are still lining up to defend these unsafe clowns, I wonder how many would if they didn't use steam so much

.... This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with steam. Have you seen at galas how many more railway enthusiasts lean out of windows on diesel hauled trains? Would you like me to show you photographic evidence? I add that I am both a steam and diesel railway enthusiast (and photographer) in equal measure. I very very rarely travel by train anywhere, perhaps once or twice a year to London from Dorset and window hanging is not my thing - I like my comforts, First Class travel whenever possible. If people want to clown around window hanging and risk getting hurt then it's their lookout and responsibility.

 

[AM9]

.... Frankly, current "society" in particular has all sorts of expectations but it doesn't mean that everyone has to follow like sheep what society says. Society is heavily influenced by the media and the majority of people weakly allowing themselves to be influenced.

So the majority sense of self-preservation is 'following like sheep'. How dysfunctional a view is that says, 'I don't care for the safety of myself (nor others) as long as I get what I want'. Fortunately the law has a far greater control over our safety and is not corrupted by the few who espouse such random demands in the pursuit of their hobby. As for the media being the prime influencer of the 'sheep', does that include those that regularly whine about 'elf n safety gone mad'.
This reminds me of an attitude that I encountered in the '70s over the continued use of asbestos in industry (not anything top do with railways), well after its hazards were known. Somebody in a position of control and influence loudly pronounced "asbestos has saved more lives than it has taken, so there's no need to stop using it".

 

[Killingworth]

Having been on one of these tours with Mk1 stock, you have to be an enthusiast to do it because the conditions certainly in the Standard no-frills class are pretty dire. Let's face it the real money is in the Dining options and the punters for this don't run around sticking their heads out of windows or indeed opening said windows to let in smoke in tunnels.
This stock has seen better days and I suspect its general use on the 100mph railway is coming to an end. That is not to say there can't be exceptions for very restricted self contained routes like the West Highland and Grosmont-Whitby, possibly even Birmingham-Stratford.

Declaration of interest, my first railway memories are of travelling in former LNER, LMS and Southern rolling stock with leather straps to lower windows and reach brass handles. Compartments were normal and BR Mk 1s were new. Yes, I'd open a door and sometimes step down before the train stopped moving, very many did, it was normal - and dangerous.

But we're 3 generations on. In recent years we've been on specials and I'd agree that some of the rolling stock used is becoming very tired leaving aside doors. A lot of coaches need work to keep them in condition to justify the premium prices charged. LSL seem to be doing it better than WCR - which is maybe how they can charge higher prices!

 

[Harman]

I think that I may have a solution, radical but it's just an idea, people like myself that want comfort and fine dining could maybe have 4/5 luxury carriages with all the trimmings and for those who want to hang out of the windows etc hook up half a dozen coal trucks. I said it was radical and firmly tongue in cheek

 

[Essan]

If the stock was irrelevant people would use the scotrail service a lot more

The Scotrail service is standing room only during summer months (except the early/late services)

 

[Robin Procter]

So the majority sense of self-preservation is 'following like sheep'. How dysfunctional a view is that says, 'I don't care for the safety of myself (nor others) as long as I get what I want'. Fortunately the law has a far greater control over our safety and is not corrupted by the few who espouse such random demands in the pursuit of their hobby. As for the media being the prime influencer of the 'sheep', does that include those that regularly whine about 'elf n safety gone mad'.
This reminds me of an attitude that I encountered in the '70s over the continued use of asbestos in industry (not anything top do with railways), well after its hazards were known. Somebody in a position of control and influence loudly pronounced "asbestos has saved more lives than it has taken, so there's no need to stop using it".

.... You are twisting my words to suit your argument. A greater sense among people of their self-preservation is exactly what they should be combining with Common Sense. This isn't about anyone's pursuit of their "hobbies" but of course I don't care that much about how other people behave unless it directly effects me and I have very little social conscience.

Each case is different and your isolated asbestos example is as you say, nothing to do with railways or ORR. And yes I do think that Health & Safety has gone mad by over thinking everything - Don't you realise it is fuelled by insurance costs and those making money out of it?

I think that I may have a solution, radical but it's just an idea, people like myself that want comfort and fine dining could maybe have 4/5 luxury carriages with all the trimmings and for those who want to hang out of the windows etc hook up half a dozen coal trucks. I said it was radical and firmly tongue in cheek

.... That's a good idea and I expect that the window hanging folk would welcome riding in brake vans. In fact I know from observation that they already do.

 

[Mountain Man]

If the stock was irrelevant people would use the scotrail service a lot more

I'd contend for the vast majority it's the steam engine not the carriages that matter

 

[Robin Procter]

I'd contend for the vast majority it's the steam engine not the carriages that matter

.... Any steam engine on a train will have more appeal to the majority of people because it has the nostalgic character of a living and breathing machine embodying the fundamental elements of coal, fire, and water to produce steam. Steam locos generate far more interest. That attraction is usually primary for most travellers (and also observers) but the comfort and luxury of the carriages comes a close second if you are travelling. No vehicle/carriage/wagon on the railway is considered to be a death trap but, just like a road vehicle, each has the potential to take your life or seriously injure you if you don't use common sense and take care.

Whatever next? Will ORR be trying to insist that all rail passengers wear safety belts?

 

[43096]

Whatever next? Will ORR be trying to insist that all rail passengers wear safety belts?

No. It has been looked at, but rejected as impractical.

 

[Gaz67]

The latest WCR update (yesterday ) sounds quite positive on a workable outcome to me, I am a glass half full kind of person though, at Carlisle today to view Tangmere, got to say what I saw was in no way representative of many of the negative , hysterical views expressed on here , in my opinion. Can't beat getting out there and experiencing it close up and seeing railwaymen/women at work, may change a few views on here.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The latest WCR update (yesterday ) sounds quite positive on a workable outcome to me, I am a glass half full kind of person though, at Carlisle today to view Tangmere, got to say what I saw was in no way representative of many of the negative , hysterical views expressed on here , in my opinion. Can't beat getting out there and experiencing it close up and seeing railwaymen/women at work, may change a few views on here.

The ORR did that, in response to a complaint, and found what it found. Lax procedures!

Bill Smith is innocent, free the Staintondale one.

.... Any steam engine on a train will have more appeal to the majority of people because it has the nostalgic character of a living and breathing machine embodying the fundamental elements of coal, fire, and water to produce steam. Steam locos generate far more interest. That attraction is usually primary for most travellers (and also observers) but the comfort and luxury of the carriages comes a close second if you are travelling. No vehicle/carriage/wagon on the railway is considered to be a death trap but, just like a road vehicle, each has the potential to take your life or seriously injure you if you don't use common sense and take care.

Whatever next? Will ORR be trying to insist that all rail passengers wear safety belts?

Is there a risk of them being ejected from the vehicle? The Croydon tram crash deaths and how they happened suggests that might not be such a bad idea in some cases.