WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[30907]

I was referring more to the cost of having to drag a diesel loco or generator car around to provide power, plus associated extra fuel/staff costs than the outlay of fitting CDL itself.

I can't imagine that providing electrical power for a set of secondary door locks would require more than a hefty battery in the van area of the BSO - in fact I wonder idly if you could fit them in the existing battery boxes!

And a CDL system would be operated by the guard, obviating the need for safety-critical stewards.

 

[43096]

I can't imagine that providing electrical power for a set of secondary door locks would require more than a hefty battery in the van area of the BSO - in fact I wonder idly if you could fit them in the existing battery boxes!

And a CDL system would be operated by the guard, obviating the need for safety-critical stewards.

You still need the stewards to stop heads being put out of windows.

 

[357]

I can't imagine that providing electrical power for a set of secondary door locks would require more than a hefty battery in the van area of the BSO - in fact I wonder idly if you could fit them in the existing battery boxes!

And a CDL system would be operated by the guard, obviating the need for safety-critical stewards.

As far as I know, the bolts are air operated and a compressor is needed.

 

[12LDA28C]

I was referring more to the cost of having to drag a diesel loco or generator car around to provide power, plus associated extra fuel/staff costs than the outlay of fitting CDL itself. I understand the Jacobite is limited in length due to passing loops, and as it’s largely standard class I can imagine runs on a tighter margin than the more typical premier dining tours seen nowadays, so a coach less revenue may mean it isn’t viable, especially considering how the price of coal has shot up recently.

No matter how many millions any company has in the bank, there is no incentive to run a loss making operation.

According to reports the Jacobite makes WCRC a seven-figure sum in profit each year. I doubt that running with one less vehicle in the formation would turn that into a loss.

As far as I know, the bolts are air operated and a compressor is needed.

Who said anything about air-operated bolts? Other methods of locking doors are available which don't require air.

 

[357]

Who said anything about air-operated bolts? Other methods of locking doors are available which don't require air.

I thought that was the standard CDL in use across the industry. Maybe I'm wrong.

According to reports the Jacobite makes WCRC a seven-figure sum in profit each year. I doubt that running with one less vehicle in the formation would turn that into a loss.

Agreed. If WCRC don't continue then someone else will step in. It might not make as much as a dining outing but it's a large chunk of income, otherwise they wouldn't bother.

 

[Wolfie]

Play a bit of recorded audio


Appealling to the public sympathy vote

The latter might just possibly have had some success prior to failed litigation.... Now....

 

[Bill57p9]

You still need the stewards to stop heads being put out of windows.

I thought that stewards were still required to operate slam doors on the main line, even with CDL - or is that TOC risk assessment specific? On the Night Riviera there are stewards - though I am unsure what the arrangements are for seated passengers though note that the seated accommodation is no longer available for local journeys: Taunton being the only set down and pick up.
LSL and other charter run with stewards operating centrally locked slam doors.

 

[anothertyke]

I thought that stewards were still required to operate slam doors on the main line, even with CDL - or is that TOC risk assessment specific? On the Night Riviera there are stewards - though I am unsure what the arrangements are for seated passengers though note that the seated accommodation is no longer available for local journeys: Taunton being the only set down and pick up.
LSL and other charter run with stewards operating centrally locked slam doors.

Obviously very necessary for short platforms.

 

[43096]

Obviously very necessary for short platforms.

If the CDL on the stock isn't fitted with SDO.

 

[Bikeman78]

Out of interest which vehicles have had the override protection fitted?

Is there a deadline for this? Worth noting that over riding of vehicles within the same train is very rare.

I thought that stewards were still required to operate slam doors on the main line, even with CDL - or is that TOC risk assessment specific? On the Night Riviera there are stewards - though I am unsure what the arrangements are for seated passengers though note that the seated accommodation is no longer available for local journeys: Taunton being the only set down and pick up.
LSL and other charter run with stewards operating centrally locked slam doors.

Sleepers have had stewards for as long as I can remember. Either one per sleeper car or one for every two.

 

[12LDA28C]

I thought that was the standard CDL in use across the industry. Maybe I'm wrong.

On air-braked stock, yes. The vac-braked Chiltern bubble cars used an electro-magnet system and other systems can be fitted such as an electrically-operated catch or locking pin on each door.

 

[357]

On air-braked stock, yes. The vac-braked Chiltern bubble cars used an electro-magnet system and other systems can be fitted such as an electrically-operated catch or locking pin on each door.

Right, my mistake! I only ever worked with MK3 stock and thought one of WCRC's arguments was about vac brake locos.

Really is no excuse then...

 

[Iskra]

I was told by a volunteer on the NYMR today that they've been given 12 weeks to get their carriages for the Whitby service compliant. The volunteer wasn't optimistic about that being deliverable or affordable.

 

[12LDA28C]

I was told by a volunteer on the NYMR today that they've been given 12 weeks to get their carriages for the Whitby service compliant. The volunteer wasn't optimistic about that being deliverable or affordable.

Hasn't the NYMR been told they can run at a maximum speed of 25mph to Whitby without CDL being fitted?

 

[Iskra]

Hasn't the NYMR been told they can run at a maximum speed of 25mph to Whitby without CDL being fitted?

With door stewards. Presumably that’s for 12 weeks…

 

[Bill57p9]

I was told by a volunteer on the NYMR today that they've been given 12 weeks to get their carriages for the Whitby service compliant. The volunteer wasn't optimistic about that being deliverable or affordable.

Interesting.
Their exemption listed on the ORR website https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...regulation-5-certficate-of-exemption-nymr.pdf still runs until March 2028 though ORR can withdraw it. There is a 12 week notice clause in it relating to any procedural changes.

The key (additional) mitigations when operating on Network Rail are:

• 25mph limit
• Between Grosmont and Whitby only
• At least one steward in each coach OR for the two adjacent vestibules of two coaches
• Doors either locked out of use OR secondary door locks in use and only operated by stewards
• Passenger announcements to reinforce that only stewards to operate door locks

 

[Iskra]

Interesting.
Their exemption listed on the ORR website https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...regulation-5-certficate-of-exemption-nymr.pdf still runs until March 2028 though ORR can withdraw it. There is a 12 week notice clause in it relating to any procedural changes.

The key (additional) mitigations when operating on Network Rail are:

• 25mph limit
• Between Grosmont and Whitby only
• At least one steward in each coach OR for the two adjacent vestibules of two coaches
• Doors either locked out of use OR secondary door locks in use and only operated by stewards
• Passenger announcements to reinforce that only stewards to operate door locks

I presume NYMR are just a victim of the ORR having to be seen to treat all operators consistently here. It's a shame as the volunteer I spoke with seemed to think it may spell the end for NYMR Whitby services, so the consequences of WCRC's (in)actions aren't just going to be felt in Mallaig, unless a hasty solution can be found, which looks unlikely at this point.

 

[Killingworth]

I presume NYMR are just a victim of the ORR having to be seen to treat all operators consistently here. It's a shame as the volunteer I spoke with seemed to think it may spell the end for NYMR Whitby services, so the consequences of WCRC's (in)actions aren't just going to be felt in Mallaig, unless a hasty solution can be found, which looks unlikely at this point.

Probably inevitable but begs the question about operating such stock anywhere as much of the danger may come from doors being opened prematurely at under 10 mph in platforms!

 

[NER1621]

It's a shame as the volunteer I spoke with seemed to think it may spell the end for NYMR Whitby services,

Do we have any other source for this development other than “a volunteer told me” and a volunteer “seemed to think”?

 

[ainsworth74]

The vast majority of rail industry professionals completely agree with you.

And quite a lot of non-professionals too...

 

[30907]

The key (additional) mitigations when operating on Network Rail are:

• 25mph limit
• Between Grosmont and Whitby only
• At least one steward in each coach OR for the two adjacent vestibules of two coaches
• Doors either locked out of use OR secondary door locks in use and only operated by stewards
• Passenger announcements to reinforce that only stewards to operate door locks

There is also one that the total number of passengers must not exceed the seating capacity of the train - ISTR that being a potential issue on the 17xx from Whitby.

The 25mph limit might be due to the stock not being certified for normal main line use?

 

[Iskra]

Do we have any other source for this development other than “a volunteer told me” and a volunteer “seemed to think”?

The volunteer in question was very specific about details, including costs per coach and possible different systems of operation so I am confident that they are knowledgeable on the topic. While it is absolutely possible that it's a load of rubbish, and you are right to be sceptical until anything is officially announced, it does tie-in with circumstantial evidence and goings-on elsewhere, such as the 12 week notice period quoted here:

Interesting.
Their exemption listed on the ORR website https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...regulation-5-certficate-of-exemption-nymr.pdf still runs until March 2028 though ORR can withdraw it. There is a 12 week notice clause in it relating to any procedural changes.

The key (additional) mitigations when operating on Network Rail are:

• 25mph limit
• Between Grosmont and Whitby only
• At least one steward in each coach OR for the two adjacent vestibules of two coaches
• Doors either locked out of use OR secondary door locks in use and only operated by stewards
• Passenger announcements to reinforce that only stewards to operate door locks

However, only time will tell and it is also possible that a workaround may be able to be implemented within that time. Things can and do change. I don't offer that paraphrased source as definitive on the topic, only as a fragment of a wider jigsaw, which you are welcome to draw your own conclusions about.

 

[bleeder4]

Do we have any other source for this development other than “a volunteer told me” and a volunteer “seemed to think”?

I can't comment on what the volunteer may have said, but it is well known that the NYMR is in financial trouble, primarily due to rising coal costs. See this news report from 2 weeks ago, entitled Auditors cast 'significant doubt' on North Yorkshire Moors Railway's ability to operate as a going concern after financial losses. https: //www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/auditors-cast-significant-doubt-on-north-yorkshire-moors-railway-s-ability-to-operate-as-a-going-concern-after-financial-losses/ar-BB1jOFTl?ocid=finance-verthp-feeds

MSN

www.msn.com

​

 

[Gunslinger]

Probably inevitable but begs the question about operating such stock anywhere as much of the danger may come from doors being opened prematurely at under 10 mph in platforms!

Possibly not such an issue at Whitby. ISTR because of the narrowness of the platform passengers are not allowed onto it until arriving passengers have left.

 

[NER1621]

I can't comment on what the volunteer may have said, but it is well known that the NYMR is in financial trouble,

Yes, that’s why I asked if we have any more official confirmation of this CDL development. Because it is NOT “well known that the NYMR is in financial trouble” - the auditors’ note was quite rightly attached as a warning to their report on accounts for the operating company for two years ago when it was recovering from COVID and being hit by the big leap in fuel costs. This was before any mitigating actions were taken (some unpleasant, such as reducing staff numbers) which have started to turn around the ship. But the auditors’ warning has been leapt on by the press scenting bad news which sells papers and clicks, following on from the Levisham volunteers story. It’s also been exaggerated by some forum commentators who seem have an axe to grind against the NYMR, possibly as a result of the same issue.

That’s why I’d like to see an official statement. For the record: if the ORR has made this change because it now has to be seen to treat all Mk1 operators on the main line equally, then fair enough. And I think the NYMR would survive the end of the Whitby services.

(Perhaps this needs moving over to the NYMR thread?)

 

[12LDA28C]

The people at the 'sharp end' who deliberately isolated safety systems and/or turned a blind eye to it, knowing full well the rule book requirements?

They make a choice to work for such an employer. If you don't like the organisational culture, then you get out. I know of people who did some contract work at Carnforth, didn't like what they saw and have never been back.

I specifically referred to the people I know personally and I would say the vast majority fall into the same category although clearly there are exceptions.

Out of interest which vehicles have had the override protection fitted?

I'm pretty sure LSL's Mk1 vehicles have had major structural work carried out in this regard.

 

[30907]

For the record: if the ORR has made this change because it now has to be seen to treat all Mk1 operators on the main line equally, then fair enough.

The linked document is valid from 1 April 2023 for 5 years. This predates the prohibition of the Jacobite which was last summer.

I wonder if ORR have reminded the NYMR of their responsibilities, though, following a visit?

 

[renegademaster]

This predates the prohibition of the Jacobite which was last summer.

The Jacobite isn't currently prohibited, WCRC just only has one CDL set and that is being used by railtours so the jacobite cant run anymore. All WCRC need to do is find a set somewhere, since black 5s are air braked you could even end up with a set of mark 3s or 4s being purchased and painted maroon

 

[paul1609]

The Jacobite isn't currently prohibited, WCRC just only has one CDL set and that is being used by railtours so the jacobite cant run anymore. All WCRC need to do is find a set somewhere, since black 5s are air braked you could even end up with a set of mark 3s or 4s being purchased and painted maroon

I suspect there isn't a set somewhere that has CDL fitted and current mainline certificate.

 

[12LDA28C]

I suspect there isn't a set somewhere that has CDL fitted and current mainline certificate.

Apart from the WCRC CDL-fitted Mk2 set which is out on railtour duties most weekends?