WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[renegademaster]

£1 million

The accuray of the claim is a different question but west coast claim it costs £12 million to fit one rake, thata 12 years of the profit to pay for it, and you also have to remember the days of cheap credit we used to have are gone.

required, end of story

And WCRC have complied, by getting rid of the non compliant services, the mark 1s will probably never run again

 

[Railwaycat]

Evidently WCR is still refusing to enter into such a commitment.

That's not quite the truth though is it?
The letter says WC has not to date made a commitment, not that they are not going to.

 

[CyrusWuff]

WCRC appears to have run a train from Fort William to Mallaig this morning in the usual Jacobite path, with 37676/685 as the traction....

Realtime Trains | 2Y61 1015 Fort William to Mallaig | 08/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 2Y61 1015 departure from Fort William to Mallaig on 08/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If they've tried running that in passenger service, surely the ORR have more than enough grounds to permanently revoke their operating licence given they don't have a current exemption to run slamdoor stock?

 

[Railwaycat]

They have been intransigent but I do think fitting a novel saftey system to 60 year old trains is a bit more time consuming than writing some press releases


It could be feasible grounds for an exemption though . A key system which only stewards have access to would be a lot safer than the system they was previously permitted to use and VT and NYMR are currently using

An electronic battery operated secondary lock system in each coach, with an emergency behind glass release, should be all that's needed - one steward for two coaches could lock/unlock it before departure and on arrival, and all sorts of open/closed warning devices (lights, buzzers) could be fitted as well. This would address the short platform issue, and any danger from the CDL failing and locking everybody in. West Coast should be putting such a solution forward instead of being intransigent (appearing to be anyway, we don't know what is in the full application).

 

[ainsworth74]

The accuray of the claim is a different question but west coast claim it costs £12 million to fit one rake, thata 12 years of the profit to pay for it, and you also have to remember the days of cheap credit we used to have are gone.

And I believe everyone, including the court, considers that figure to be somewhat of an exaggeration.

 

[renegademaster]

And I believe everyone, including the court, considers that figure to be somewhat of an exaggeration.

The court didn't rule on that question.

I have no idea what the true value will be , but considering only one company (coincidentally the one who charges the highest prices ) has managed it, one has publicly given up, and two have exemptions based on plans for CDL but I've not actually seen any updates on said progress , it's not as easy as armchair commentators are making it out to be

If they've tried running that in passenger service, surely the ORR have more than enough grounds to permanently revoke their operating licence given they don't have a current exemption to run slamdoor stock?

They aren't running it passenger service though

 

[43096]

An electronic battery operated secondary lock system in each coach, with an emergency behind glass release, should be all that's needed - one steward for two coaches could lock/unlock it before departure and on arrival, and all sorts of open/closed warning devices (lights, buzzers) could be fitted as well. This would address the short platform issue, and any danger from the CDL failing and locking everybody in. West Coast should be putting such a solution forward instead of being intransigent (appearing to be anyway, we don't know what is in the full application).

Please go and read the relevant legislation - I posted it up thread earlier today. What you are proposing is not compliant.

In terms of short platforms, there are already alternatives with a compliant CDL SDO system.

 

[12LDA28C]

The accuray of the claim is a different question but west coast claim it costs £12 million to fit one rake, thata 12 years of the profit to pay for it, and you also have to remember the days of cheap credit we used to have are gone.

That is utter nonsense and you know it. The ORR's estimate of the cost of fitting was around £26,000 per vehicle so WCRC are just plucking random numbers from thin air.

 

[Railwaycat]

Interesting comments from the chap who runs the boat tours, who quite rightly notes that he has to comply with the regulations laid down by the MCA which he does with significantly less resource than WCRC.

He clearly hasn't thought this through before commenting.
Those regulations will be to ensure the safety of his boat, not the individual personal safety of his passengers (except for the provision of life jackets etc) - if they were, he would be required to lock his passengers in a cabin while at sea, or install head height railings with locked gates on deck. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from jumping/falling/being thrown off most passenger boats, and it happens. Go to the Farne Islands for example, and all you get is "don't stand on the seats, or we'll shout at you" (I also have found that those boats can be very overcrowded).

 

[mpthomson]

I'm not sure why any of those MPs would really care. None of them represent Scottish constituencies, other than Jamie Stone whose constituency is Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross.

The list is:

• David Morris
• Tim Farron
• Sarah Dines
• Jamie Stone
• James Wild
• Graham Brady
• Robbie Moore
• Cat Smith

Smith, Morris and Farron are the local MPs to 10A, not sure what links the rest really.

 

[mike57]

The accuray of the claim is a different question but west coast claim it costs £12 million to fit one rake, thata 12 years of the profit to pay for it, and you also have to remember the days of cheap credit we used to have are gone.

A quick search and I came up with a cost of anything £1.25 to 2m per coach for brand new rolling stock, so £12m per rake claim just doesn't hold water.

One assumes if the track access agreement expires in the autumn it will not be renewed if there is no service. Would the paths be offered to another operator? It sound like overall the operation is profitable, so the question is would anyone else be in a position to run a similar service. I assume because its an open access operation its up to another operator to express an interest. Would the local tourist board in the affected location or the local authority try and encourage someone else to take over?

 

[Meerkat]

An electronic battery operated secondary lock system in each coach, with an emergency behind glass release, should be all that's needed - one steward for two coaches could lock/unlock it before departure and on arrival, and all sorts of open/closed warning devices (lights, buzzers) could be fitted as well. This would address the short platform issue, and any danger from the CDL failing and locking everybody in. West Coast should be putting such a solution forward instead of being intransigent (appearing to be anyway, we don't know what is in the full application).

Will ORR accept a steward operated system (ie not the needed CDL) after busting WCRC twice for stewards not doing their job?

 

[mike57]

Will ORR accept a steward operated system (ie not the needed CDL) after busting WCRC twice for stewards not doing their job?

Quite possibly not.

I have no sympathy for WCRC, they had an exemption in place, and instead of sticking to the terms they let things slip and got caught.

I work in a safety critical industry and we sometimes get regulator exemption for particular issues. In that case everyone is very careful to stick to the terms of it, because failing to do so will result in it being withdrawn, its common sense.

Had WCRC operated safely and not failed the unannounced inspection then they would have been a position to argue that given the mitigations in place the operation could continue without CDL for this specific service, and would probably have been in a strong position to make their case. As it is they have just made themselves look bad.

The people I fell sorry for are the local business owners who are losing out because of the failings of WCRC.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm not sure why any of those MPs would really care. None of them represent Scottish constituencies, other than Jamie Stone whose constituency is Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross.

The list is:

• David Morris
• Tim Farron
• Sarah Dines
• Jamie Stone
• James Wild
• Graham Brady
• Robbie Moore
• Cat Smith

I have no idea why anybody would consider this to be a Scottish only matter when the letter clearly doesn’t just relate to The Jacobite and the first sentence explains what the connection is.

 

[ainsworth74]

The court didn't rule on that question.

Not directly I suppose but it did note that:

76. The Claimant initially estimated the costs of retrofitting central door locking at £3 million, which was based on an approximate cost of £30,000 per carriage to fit central door locking. As the parties accepted, the latter figure is broadly in line with the ORR’s assessment of a maximum cost per carriage of £26,250. The Claimant’s cost estimate later rose to £7 million, which was said to be direct costs and lost revenue. No supporting evidence was provided. The ORR disputed the estimate. The increase in estimate appears to relate to loss of revenue but the ORR has indicated that it is prepared to allow a transition period for the installation of central door locking and has done so for other operators. The Court was told that other operators have done the work in January and February, out of season, so as to reduce the impact on revenue. The Claimant’s Jacobite train only operates in the summer months, which would enable the work to be done in the winter months without loss of revenue. “Since the burden of proof is usually on the person who asserts a fact to be true, if that burden is not discharged, the court will proceed on the basis that the fact has not been proved” (R (Talpada) v SSHD [2018] EWCA Civ 84, Hallett LJ at §2). Accordingly, the Court proceeds on the basis the £7 million estimate has not been proved.

You would think that they could provide proof of how they reached a cost of £7m seeing as they had need to do so as part of their legal proceedings but failed to do so. It now appears to have risen to £12m. At this point they could probably buy a rake of Mk5 coaches for the prices being bandied about to refit their Mk1s with CDL. Which seems utterly fanciful to be quite honest. I rather suspect that that ORRs estimate, which we know is based on conversations with other heritage operators, is perhaps closer to the mark than whatever random figure WCRC generate.

21. On 26 July 2021, the ORR published an assessment of the costs of installing central door locking. It obtained the information from three heritage train operators who had fitted central door locking or were in the process of doing so. The maximum cost to retrofit each carriage was £26,250, amounting to £348,440 for a 12 carriage train. [...]

Dunno about you but £30k sounds far more likely (maybe £35/40k now due to inflation) than the millions that WCRC are claiming it'll cost.

 

[renegademaster]

Will ORR accept a steward operated system (ie not the needed CDL) after busting WCRC twice for stewards not doing their job?

A quick search and I came up with a cost of anything £1.25 to 2m per coach for brand new rolling stock, so £12m per rake claim just doesn't hold water.

One assumes if the track access agreement expires in the autumn it will not be renewed if there is no service. Would the paths be offered to another operator? It sound like overall the operation is profitable, so the question is would anyone else be in a position to run a similar service. I assume because its an open access operation its up to another operator to express an interest. Would the local tourist board in the affected location or the local authority try and encourage someone else to take over?

To keep it running using something like a spare turbostar wouldnt be hard but wouldnt be much appeal either. Getting it functioning with a steam engine is a bit harder.

Some steam engines can work with more modern carridges as they have air brakes(the ones being used on the Jacobotie being examples) but even then theirs own a limited amount of mark 2s and 3s laying about in a useable condition. Maybe the old EMR HST stock could get used but you will really be stretching the vintage feel some people want. The Chiltern mark 3s would make good slidy door railtour stock when they eventually get rid of them.

which we know is based on conversations with other heritage operators

Only one of which has actually been completed on mark loco hauled stock (which unlike the WC set had ETH and air brakes) and do you have any links to any information on what is costs?

 

[Railwaycat]

Please go and read the relevant legislation - I posted it up thread earlier today. What you are proposing is not compliant.

In terms of short platforms, there are already alternatives with a compliant CDL SDO system.

Legislation can and often is changed.

 

[Killingworth]

Isn't a big part of this issue the quantity of old Mk 1 coaches owned by WC that are still available but in various degrees of deterioration requiring renovation as well as CDL? Each one needs assessment. Many probably aren't economic to fit CDL on top of restoration. Maybe most of them.

There's also very limited capacity do all the work likely to be needed n a short period if WC were compelled to do that. As things look at present many, maybe most, of their old carriages are doomed. Practicality may be as important as possession of cash to fix them.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's also very limited capacity do all the work likely to be needed n a short period if WC were compelled to do that. As things look at present many, maybe most, of their old carriages are doomed. Practicality may be as important as possession of cash to fix them.

Though I suspect that if WCRC were to come back with a proper time bound plan, even one taking several years, they might well earn themselves a new exemption. The ORRs issue appears to be that WCRC's view is that they need to do nothing not that it might take a few years for them to fund and carry out the works.

Of course equally the ORR might now be so distrustful of WCRC perhaps they wouldn't be willing to offer an exemption on that basis. Though in that case WCRC, again, only have themselves to blame for managing to make the regulator so distrusting of their operations.

 

[43096]

Legislation can and often is changed.

Yes, but Farmer Smith saying “I don’t want to” isn’t grounds for doing so - particularly when others have either already complied or are in the process of doing so. Any change to the legislation now would trigger legal action from those who have already spent money to comply.

 

[Llanigraham]

The accuray of the claim is a different question but west coast claim it costs £12 million to fit one rake, thata 12 years of the profit to pay for it, and you also have to remember the days of cheap credit we used to have are gone.

And yet other operators have managed to fit SDL for a lot less money.
That makes WCRC's claim fatuous.

He clearly hasn't thought this through before commenting.
Those regulations will be to ensure the safety of his boat, not the individual personal safety of his passengers (except for the provision of life jackets etc) - if they were, he would be required to lock his passengers in a cabin while at sea, or install head height railings with locked gates on deck. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from jumping/falling/being thrown off most passenger boats, and it happens. Go to the Farne Islands for example, and all you get is "don't stand on the seats, or we'll shout at you" (I also have found that those boats can be very overcrowded).

No, the safety standards a passenger boat skipper/owner are required to meet includes the safety of all their passengers.. To suggest that means they would have to be locked in is ridiciulous.

Will ORR accept a steward operated system (ie not the needed CDL) after busting WCRC twice for stewards not doing their job?

Most unlikely! They've already been caught not abiding by their previous rules

 

[renegademaster]

And yet other operators have

One has(on very different stock,under a different business model), one has given up for unspecified reasons, two have plans to but haven't actually shown any results

 

[skyhigh]

Legislation can and often is changed.

If the legislation is changed under pressure from WCRC to mean they don't need to fit CDL, you can bet that LSL and anyone else who has paid to actually do the work will be lodging court claims to get their money back.

 

[12C]

No, the safety standards a passenger boat skipper/owner are required to meet includes the safety of all their passengers.. To suggest that means they would have to be locked in is ridiciulous.

The general theme of this thread is the argument of whether or not it is ridiculous for West Coast’s railtour passengers to have to be locked in or not…

 

[renegademaster]

will be lodging court claims to get their money back

What basis is that illegal though? Parliament can change laws for whatever reasons it wants to and doesn't have to prove fairness. Neither does ORR which was why the courts refused to consider WCRC claims of mistreatment either

 

[12LDA28C]

To keep it running using something like a spare turbostar wouldnt be hard but wouldnt be much appeal either. Getting it functioning with a steam engine is a bit harder.

Running the Jacobite using a 'spare Turbostar wouldn't be hard'? Where would the train be obtained from? Are there many 170s sitting around in storage? How many WCRC drivers and fitters sign Turbostars? Are 170s passed for the route from Fort William to Mallaig? All these questions and more would need to be answered.

 

[3RDGEN]

The general theme of this thread is the argument of whether or not it is ridiculous for West Coast’s railtour passengers to have to be locked in or not…

The 1999 Regulations state that hinged doors must be centrally locked and hence any operators passengers will be locked in, there is no debate on that. As already posted above;

"Prohibition of hinged doors 5.— (1) No person shall operate, and no infrastructure controller shall permit the operation of any rolling stock on a railway if the rolling stock has hinged doors for use by passengers for boarding and alighting from the train (other than doors which have a means of centrally locking them in a closed position)"

(Note - It does not stipulate "CDL").

What basis is that illegal though? Parliament can change laws for whatever reasons it wants to and doesn't have to prove fairness. Neither does ORR which was why the courts refused to consider WCRC claims of mistreatment either

There is no need to change the 1999 regulations as there is already allowance for exemptions to be issued which is what everyone has been using for 20+ years, until March 2023;

"Exemption certificates 6.— (1) The [relevant authority] may, by certificate in writing, exempt any person or class of persons, railway, part of a railway or class of railways, train or rolling stock, or class of train or rolling stock from any prohibition imposed by these Regulations and any such exemption may be granted subject to conditions and to a limit of time and may be revoked by a certificate in writing at any time".

The same 1999 regulations also ban the operation of "Mark 1 rolling stock" on the mainline, but again exemptions are possible and all operators of "Mark 1 rolling stock" have exemptions in place for now. The ORR can revoke them at anytime as per the regulations.

"Prohibition of Mark I rolling stock 4.— (1) No person shall operate, and no infrastructure controller shall permit the operation of, any Mark I rolling stock on a railway".

 

[12LDA28C]

Some steam engines can work with more modern carridges as they have air brakes(the ones being used on the Jacobotie being examples) but even then theirs own a limited amount of mark 2s and 3s laying about in a useable condition. Maybe the old EMR HST stock could get used but you will really be stretching the vintage feel some people want. The Chiltern mark 3s would make good slidy door railtour stock when they eventually get rid of them.

Hard to understand what you're trying to say here but in essence this subject has been done to death. WCRC own a set of CDL-fitted Mk2s which they could use when they are not committed to railtour duties and the pros and cons of this have been discussed extensively here. They've had many years to formulate a plan for fitting their Mk1s but have not done so and no amount of online petitions or MP's signatures will change that fact.

 

[renegademaster]

Running the Jacobite using a 'spare Turbostar wouldn't be hard'? Where would the train be obtained from? Are there many 170s sitting around in storage? How many WCRC drivers and fitters sign Turbostars? Are 170s passed for the route from Fort William to Mallaig? All these questions and more would need to be answered.

I was more talking about if scotrail or some open access operator wanted to takeover the path ,in the context of the post of I was replying to. I was just using turbostar as a placeholder for modern stock, any DMU would do

 

[12LDA28C]

One has(on very different stock,under a different business model), one has given up for unspecified reasons, two have plans to but haven't actually shown any results

Which two operators are these that haven't 'shown any results' and how do you know that to be the case? Are you in direct personal contact with their fleet engineers? Have you personally been around their carriage workshops to determine that no work has taken place to date? Or are you just making assumptions?

I was more talking about if scotrail or some open access operator wanted to takeover the path ,in the context of the post of I was replying to. I was just using turbostar as a placeholder for modern stock, any DMU would do

Scotrail don't have any spare stock, hence they are unable to strengthen their existing timetabled services let alone run an additional train. They have stated as much themselves.