Websites which show how many coaches a train is formed of.

[swt class 450]

Hi all. Whilst i understand that websites that show unit numbers are not publically available i am just wondering are there any websites which show how many coaches a train is formed of (or at least how coaches a train is supposed to be formed of) that are publically available? Many thanks.

 

[causton]

Some TOCs own websites post it in their downloadable timetable/ 'find a seat' guides etc.

For example:

https://www.londonmidland.com/-/med...orthampton-travel-more-comfortably-dec-16.pdf

 

[MrTurbostar170]

The c2c timetable shows formations for morning trains heading to London and evening trains heading from.

 

[Deepgreen]

I am not aware of any site that provides this for the network in real time. It would be very handy, though!

 

[najaB]

I am not aware of any site that provides this for the network in real time. It would be very handy, though!

Without access to TRUST information I don't know how it would be possible.

 

[swt class 450]

Many thanks for the info. After doing some searching online i just came across this website which actually shows train lengths.

Home Page
https://live-departures.info

Departure Board (version 1)
https://live-departures.info/rail/v1.ldbsvws/

Departure Board (version 2)
https://live-departures.info/rail/v2.ldbsvws/

It appears to only work for - South West Trains / Chiltern Railways / Southern / Thameslink / Gatwick Express - services. Im not sure if the formation is based on the planned length or the actual length.

 

[chrissawer]

Northern supply information on trains which are the "wrong" length, ie. fewer or more coaches than planned. This is quite useful for checking if my normal commuter train is short formed and I can then leave the office later to avoid crush loading.

It's under "Train Formation Updates" at: https://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail

 

[trainmania100]

This website has a small number of stations, most of which have staff view of the CIS which says train formations and other things
http://iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger/

 

[XCTurbostar]

This website has a small number of stations, most of which have staff view of the CIS which says train formations and other things
http://iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger/

This is the one I use. Very handy although its worth noting that you can only see trains on the list up to 30 minutes before departure. Once it has left, there is no record.

I wonder why NR's APIs dont include that information. My guess it doesn't really have a purpose.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[najaB]

I wonder why NR's APIs dont include that information. My guess it doesn't really have a purpose.

It's up to the site to store any information in a local database. Storing and serving large amounts of historical information would just slow down the real time data feed.

Edit: May have misunderstood your post. I thought you meant why didn't the feed show services which have already departed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has a purpose when you're on the station so you know where to stand, at least.

 

[XCTurbostar]

It has a purpose when you're on the station so you know where to stand, at least.

At the stations I use (Midlands) all the displays include that information so the only time you'd need it is if you are traveling to the station and wanted to know.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[northwichcat]

Northern supply information on trains which are the "wrong" length, ie. fewer or more coaches than planned. This is quite useful for checking if my normal commuter train is short formed and I can then leave the office later to avoid crush loading.

It's under "Train Formation Updates" at: https://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail

Sometimes it's can be the wrong length because extra carriages are used - sometimes as a result of a train being out-of-position following earlier disruption or sometimes when they've put more carriages out than usual e.g. Saturdays in December.

What it doesn't say though is the actual length of the train. A 2 car Pacer filling in for a 2 car 155/156/158 is still the same number of carriages but is a 33% shorter train, while a 3 car 144 filling in for a 2 car 155/158 is an additional carriage but only 0.5m longer than the usual formation.

 

[infobleep]

At the stations I use (Midlands) all the displays include that information so the only time you'd need it is if you are traveling to the station and wanted to know.

Thanks,
Ross

Your lucky. Not all stations have this. Take Britain's busiest railway station, Clapham Junction. If Southern services are short formed, you are not aware of it as they don't announce it and yes I would stand elsewhere if I knew.

 

[takno]

This is the one I use. Very handy although its worth noting that you can only see trains on the list up to 30 minutes before departure. Once it has left, there is no record.

I wonder why NR's APIs dont include that information. My guess it doesn't really have a purpose.

Thanks,
Ross

The National Rail API contains a field for the information. I assume this is where the sites which do supply it get their info from. Unfortunately the default license for the National Rail feed has some restrictions on how you display the data that tend to push you towards just duplicating the information on station screens and nationalrail.co.uk as a single source of truth. The upshot is that most of the more specialist sites tend to use the less detailed but comparatively freer Network Rail feed which doesn't contain train length information at all.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

On the subject of Journeycheck (which someone raised above in respect of Northern) this does of course require the TOC to actually enter that data. I have used Arriva Trains Wales version of this service for some time, as I tend towards an ATW train for my morning commute into Birmingham. This should be 6 carriages (which is plenty) but sometimes is just 4 (which is not enough). When it's 4 I like to choose to get a slightly later (but empty) LM service. ATW almost never put the short-form on Journeycheck. I'm sure they used to, but not anymore.

 

[PHILIPE]

On the subject of Journeycheck (which someone raised above in respect of Northern) this does of course require the TOC to actually enter that data. I have used Arriva Trains Wales version of this service for some time, as I tend towards an ATW train for my morning commute into Birmingham. This should be 6 carriages (which is plenty) but sometimes is just 4 (which is not enough). When it's 4 I like to choose to get a slightly later (but empty) LM service. ATW almost never put the short-form on Journeycheck. I'm sure they used to, but not anymore.

People have complained on ATW Twitter several times and replied would pass to Info Team but no improvement. Today better though

 

[swrailuser]

you can get historical info on trains from the NR app for 24 hours ---- useful when needing proof of delays when filing claim online.

 

[OpsWeb]

The various CIS TOC information systems get their formation information from a system called GEMINI. GEMINI interfaces with GENIUS, TRUST and DARWIN railway systems to relay select information to the information systems. It knows the unit diagrams and live formation and allocation information.

The mainframe version of GEMINI is proper old school and was originally launched in the early 90's, however a slightly newer version (around 2002/2003 time) version is Web Gemini, which is a read-only web based version accessible by certain managers / controllers / maintainers.

This is generally only accessible within TOC Intranet networks though.

 

[infobleep]

you can get historical info on trains from the NR app for 24 hours ---- useful when needing proof of delays when filing claim online.

But not when it goes passed midnight even though your ticket from the day before is still valid.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Your lucky. Not all stations have this. Take Britain's busiest railway station, Clapham Junction. If Southern services are short formed, you are not aware of it as they don't announce it and yes I would stand elsewhere if I knew.

If I'm honest, the station I travel mostly from (Hinckley) has only within the last month been given the extra coach count and location of first class.

Interestingly enough, Nuneaton has had the coach count for the same trains for the last 5 years. Now the London Midland stations are a little tripy with the announcements as they repeat the information! E.g. "Calling at Coleshill Parkway & Birmingham New Street. A CrossCountry service which has 3 carriages. First Class accommodation is available at the rear. Formed of 3 coaches, First class is at the rear."

Just as a side note, my experience on the same route every day says that the displays are typically more often wrong about the end first class is than right!

Thanks,
Ross

 

[OpsWeb]

I think it reliess on certain hardware being installed on stations. I did some work on the Worldline system at a certain Scottish TOC to enable (service formed of x coaches) messages, and while some upgraded stations had systems capable of displaying this information, a lot of the first generation CIS stations could not display it.

Also, but between 0200-0500, Web Gemini does a main frame update from GEMINI, which means formation information isn't always available for update between this times.

 

[Class455]

Many thanks for the info. After doing some searching online i just came across this website which actually shows train lengths.

Home Page
https://live-departures.info

Departure Board (version 1)
https://live-departures.info/rail/v1.ldbsvws/

Departure Board (version 2)
https://live-departures.info/rail/v2.ldbsvws/

It appears to only work for - South West Trains / Chiltern Railways / Southern / Thameslink / Gatwick Express - services. Im not sure if the formation is based on the planned length or the actual length.

I tried the site out, looks pretty good! I'll try it again when I next travel by train on Monday.
I wish there was a site which told you what unit is working on the diagrams (not the exact number, but the type of unit on the service). Any of those around?