Welsh Assembly Government still planning Cambrian hourly for 2011

[seagull]

Where is the stock that ATW can find for a few busy summer days?

Well quite. If we had the overseas/European good practice of strengthening commuter services into large towns and cities, those units (which in Europe seem quite happy to sit around between 10 and 4 in sidings) could be used to strengthen holiday/day trip destination trains in the daytime and throughout the summer when commuter traffic is a bit less.

Too much emphasis in the UK on profit and shareholders for the railways to ever be very 'passenger friendly' when it comes to capacity on trains.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well quite. If we had the overseas/European good practice of strengthening commuter services into large towns and cities, those units (which in Europe seem quite happy to sit around between 10 and 4 in sidings) could be used to strengthen holiday/day trip destination trains in the daytime and throughout the summer when commuter traffic is a bit less.

Too much emphasis in the UK on profit and shareholders for the railways to ever be very 'passenger friendly' when it comes to capacity on trains.

The then MD in 2005 of ATW Grahm Bunker bought up 22 MK 2 coaches with intention to run excursions, additional trains to free up DMU's at time of peak demand etc. the Arriva board didn't like it and sacked him! Apart from the few that have appeared on WAG Express 1 and charged to the taxpapyer at silly money they've done bugger all with them you can see them at back of Canton Depot.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well quite. If we had the overseas/European good practice of strengthening commuter services into large towns and cities, those units (which in Europe seem quite happy to sit around between 10 and 4 in sidings) could be used to strengthen holiday/day trip destination trains in the daytime and throughout the summer when commuter traffic is a bit less.

Too much emphasis in the UK on profit and shareholders for the railways to ever be very 'passenger friendly' when it comes to capacity on trains.

The railway Companies before they became state owned in 1947, did a magnificent job in shifting summer holidays traffic(circa 1920/30s) , but then the companies owned the stock, now they don't and just lease it from the banks.
ATW in my opinion is a prime case of getting a 15 year franchise and doing as little as possible,you can dress up the stock & stations, but that does not assist with extra capacity. Bad news of overcrowded trains on the Cambrian soon gets around.


Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

The then MD in 2005 of ATW Grahm Bunker bought up 22 MK 2 coaches with intention to run excursions, additional trains to free up DMU's at time of peak demand etc. the Arriva board didn't like it and sacked him! Apart from the few that have appeared on WAG Express 1 and charged to the taxpapyer at silly money they've done bugger all with them you can see them at back of Canton Depot.

I guess WAG express (both of them if the contract is renewed for WAG express 1) will be mark 3 stock from December (are they going to have power doors?), meaning all those 22 mark 2s will be available. Just a shame Bunker didn't buy the 6 mark 2 DBSOs to put on the end of the train and some 47/7s for the other end. That's my idea for getting the extra 158s needed for the hourly Cambrian and some Fishguard services. With the current 22 mark 2s, plus the DBSOs you could have 6 4-car rakes topped with a 47/7. One rake would have to be spare in case of failures, but stick the other 5 in service (perhaps on Holyhead - Birmingham if you re-jig the diagrams so they don't interwork with the Cambrian). I thought Holyhead - Birmingham was doubled up 158s, which if there are 5 diagrams means the 5 push-pull sets I suggest would free up 10 158s, 3 for Fishguard and 7 for the Cambrian.

 

[junglejames]

If the WAG and DFT had any guts they would make ATW use the Mk2s that are sitting around doing nothing.
In any other private industry, the private companies wouldnt let things go on like this because they would lose business hand over fist. But ATW can, and will, because at the end of the day they can hide behind the contract they have with DaFT. This stops them being held responsible for all this overcrowding, and they know they have a captive audience in the passengers, who often have no option but to keep coming back.
Plus if ATW do start losing money, Arriva go cap in hand to the WAG or DFT to get extra money.

Its an absolute nightmare, and nobody has the balls to do anything about it.

 

[tbtc]

Well quite. If we had the overseas/European good practice of strengthening commuter services into large towns and cities, those units (which in Europe seem quite happy to sit around between 10 and 4 in sidings) could be used to strengthen holiday/day trip destination trains in the daytime and throughout the summer when commuter traffic is a bit less.

Too much emphasis in the UK on profit and shareholders for the railways to ever be very 'passenger friendly' when it comes to capacity on trains.

I guess the difference is that under BR we had a lot of "life expired" stock which could at least be kept for "Summer Saturday Seaside Specials".

However, with the growth in rail demand over the past ten/fifteen years, any "life expired" stock is still in everyday use (like the Pacers, 150s, 315s), so isn't available to enhance "tourist" services (because to do this would mean disrupting existing services which this old stock runs on).

Fact is, we've not been able to withdraw anything significant (apart from the southern "slammers") for many years, so there's precious little for TOCs to use in reserve.

 

[merlodlliw]

The then MD in 2005 of ATW Grahm Bunker bought up 22 MK 2 coaches with intention to run excursions, additional trains to free up DMU's at time of peak demand etc. the Arriva board didn't like it and sacked him! Apart from the few that have appeared on WAG Express 1 and charged to the taxpapyer at silly money they've done bugger all with them you can see them at back of Canton Depot.

Graham Bunker came to Wrexham about a month before the two hourly Cardiffs started, he told us about the 22 MK 2s, he said he had eyes on the North Wales line for summer use of them, to reduce overcrowding. We pointed out a well used Sunday night service was being chopped at the same time, it was the 2204 ex Chester connecting then off the Londons & heavily used by students returning to what is now Glyndwr University,he asked his aids that were present why, and then honestly said the loss of the 2204 was due to Wrexham Council paying for the Bidston service to run later,thus using this train, but he would ensure the 2204 Sunday service would be reinstated, & indeed it was. A month or so later he was sacked,
for obviously considering the passengers comfort. I doubt if 16 of the MK2 have ever turned a wheel with a passenger on board.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess WAG express (both of them if the contract is renewed for WAG express 1) will be mark 3 stock from December (are they going to have power doors?), meaning all those 22 mark 2s will be available. Just a shame Bunker didn't buy the 6 mark 2 DBSOs to put on the end of the train and some 47/7s for the other end. That's my idea for getting the extra 158s needed for the hourly Cambrian and some Fishguard services. With the current 22 mark 2s, plus the DBSOs you could have 6 4-car rakes topped with a 47/7. One rake would have to be spare in case of failures, but stick the other 5 in service (perhaps on Holyhead - Birmingham if you re-jig the diagrams so they don't interwork with the Cambrian). I thought Holyhead - Birmingham was doubled up 158s, which if there are 5 diagrams means the 5 push-pull sets I suggest would free up 10 158s, 3 for Fishguard and 7 for the Cambrian.

Holyhead/Birmingham DMUs are two coach to Shrewsbury,

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

If the WAG and DFT had any guts they would make ATW use the Mk2s that are sitting around doing nothing.
In any other private industry, the private companies wouldnt let things go on like this because they would lose business hand over fist. But ATW can, and will, because at the end of the day they can hide behind the contract they have with DaFT. This stops them being held responsible for all this overcrowding, and they know they have a captive audience in the passengers, who often have no option but to keep coming back.
Plus if ATW do start losing money, Arriva go cap in hand to the WAG or DFT to get extra money.

Its an absolute nightmare, and nobody has the balls to do anything about it.

Unless there's a get-out-clause, we're stuck with the contract until it runs out (or possibly the break-point), but hopfully somebody will see sence and nationalise after that. Sadly, while 3 Welsh partys (Green, Plaid Cymru and Labour) all seem to support the idea of a not-for-profit franchise there doesn't seem to be the will in Westminister which would be needed to force the ROSCOs the hand over the rolling stock, which means the not-for-profit franshise will still be paying for the ROSCOs' profits.:cry:

The rolling stock shortage is one reason I think WAG should cancel the extra lane for 16miles of the Heads Of Valleys Road to pay for new ValleyLines electric rolling stock (and the necessary wires). While we'll probablly have to bin the Pacers by then (2020) it should free up some 150s.

Holyhead/Birmingham DMUs are two coach to Shrewsbury

I guess you mean they are 2-car between Holyhead and Shrewsbury, as I've been told they go onto the Cambrian after reaching Birmingham, which means they need 2 units for the split at Mach. Because they go through to Cambrian, and because when I went from Conwy to Shrewsbury last year it was 4-car, I assumed they were 4-car services. That hits my idea of freeing up 158s with those mark 2s, 5 extra units is probablly only just enough for the Cambrian (if that).:cry::cry:

 

[merlodlliw]

I guess you mean they are 2-car between Holyhead and Shrewsbury, as I've been told they go onto the Cambrian after reaching Birmingham, which means they need 2 units for the split at Mach. Because they go through to Cambrian, and because when I went from Conwy to Shrewsbury last year it was 4-car, I assumed they were 4-car services. That hits my idea of freeing up 158s with those mark 2s, 5 extra units is probablly only just enough for the Cambrian (if that).:cry::cry:[/QUOTE]

They are diagrammed as two car 158s to Shrewsbury.Gareth will know what happens with them,all the ones I have caught are two car ex Wrexham.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

I guess you mean they are 2-car between Holyhead and Shrewsbury, as I've been told they go onto the Cambrian after reaching Birmingham, which means they need 2 units for the split at Mach. Because they go through to Cambrian, and because when I went from Conwy to Shrewsbury last year it was 4-car, I assumed they were 4-car services. That hits my idea of freeing up 158s with those mark 2s, 5 extra units is probablly only just enough for the Cambrian (if that).:cry::cry:

They are diagrammed as two car 158s to Shrewsbury.Gareth will know what happens with them,all the ones I have caught are two car ex Wrexham.

Bob[/QUOTE]

Its best to think of Holyhead to BHM INTL then extended to Aberystwyth/Pwllheli. The diagrams are all tied in with each other and the vastly improved punctuality since Dec 08 therefore splitting them up causes all sorts of headaches.

 

[merlodlliw]

They are diagrammed as two car 158s to Shrewsbury.Gareth will know what happens with them,all the ones I have caught are two car ex Wrexham.

Bob

Its best to think of Holyhead to BHM INTL then extended to Aberystwyth/Pwllheli. The diagrams are all tied in with each other and the vastly improved punctuality since Dec 08 therefore splitting them up causes all sorts of headaches.[/QUOTE] Does that mean some are four car formations now? surprisingly I have not noticed any fours.
Day off for Gerald, bet hes still ticking over?

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Its best to think of Holyhead to BHM INTL then extended to Aberystwyth/Pwllheli. The diagrams are all tied in with each other and the vastly improved punctuality since Dec 08 therefore splitting them up causes all sorts of headaches.

Does that mean some are four car formations now? surprisingly I have not noticed any fours.
Day off for Gerald, bet hes still ticking over?

Bob[/QUOTE]

Its structured in a way that all services between Shrewsbury and BHM INTL apart from some early morning/late evening ones are 4 car. Generally all Holyhead bound trains detach a set at Shrewsbury northbound and this then joins up a few minutes later with the service that has come from Holyhead. This happens on Paltform 4 around 0820/30 then 1020/30 and at 2 hour intervals until 1820/30. Most Cambrian trains arrive at Shrewsbury 4 car (0711 through to 1724) already having joined up Pwllheli/Aberystwyth portions at Machynlleth and "cross" the Cambrian bound train in Shrewsbury so theres no detaching/attaching. The 0727 & 0927 to Aberystwyth are 2 car diagrams.

Last summer the 0927 from Shrewsbury was 4 car and the 1100 from Machynlleth to Pwllheli and return working had an extra set attached to it as did some Holyhead workings (unsure which). The ability to strengthen is of course severely constrained by 158's having to substitute for 175's now compounded by the extra 175 needed for WAG2 and 158 refurb programme.

Yesterday the 1100 from Mach up the coast was 4 car.

 

[anthony263]

Maybe ATW should use some of those spare MK2 carriages which are sitting idle at canton and the wag express sets during the daytime to free up some DMU's to provide the extra capacity.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Maybe ATW should use some of those spare MK2 carriages which are sitting idle at canton and the wag express sets during the daytime to free up some DMU's to provide the extra capacity.

That's what I suggested earlier, except you need some 47/7s to haul them and the DBSOs for the other end. That would also require seperating the Cambrian diagrams from the BHM INTL - Holyheads, which might prevent sufficent turn-round time at BHM INTL. If the turn-rounds can be made long enough I think it probably would be a good plan.

Roughly what will the shortfall in 175s (ie. the number of 158s/153s/150s substituting for 175s) be once 1 is put on WAG2?

 

[merlodlliw]

Roughly what will the shortfall in 175s (ie. the number of 158s/153s/150s substituting for 175s) be once 1 is put on WAG2?

.

Interesting point, I wonder what WAG 2 stock will be doing around Cardiff for 6 hours. it has to be cleaned/serviced over & above the usual for the return
leg, I am sure a 175 three car from another service,just litter picked will not be acceptable for this almost £700K 175 subsidy contract to Dec 2011.
The omission of Flintshire stations from the route is still causing a backlash,well it is a political train,
It also appears a 158 replacement is not an option, so some service will suffer if a 175 fails.

I also wonder who will be using this train which arrives in Cardiff after midday?




Bob[/QUOTE]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe ATW should use some of those spare MK2 carriages which are sitting idle at canton and the wag express sets during the daytime to free up some DMU's to provide the extra capacity.

Suppose four of them will tarted up for Wag 2, as for the other 16 who knows.
Ill give Graham Bunker is due when he was CEO of ATW, he did get out of what is now called "leatherland" to get vox pop, unlike a few who only leave Cardiff when it suits them for a photo shoot.

Roll on the next franchise in whatever form it takes, having all these 16 or so carriages mothballed at Cardiff, is in my view immoral,when we have so much
capacity shortage in Wales & Borders. which gets worse by the week.

 

[matt]

That's what I suggested earlier, except you need some 47/7s to haul them and the DBSOs for the other end. That would also require seperating the Cambrian diagrams from the BHM INTL - Holyheads, which might prevent sufficent turn-round time at BHM INTL. If the turn-rounds can be made long enough I think it probably would be a good plan.

Roughly what will the shortfall in 175s (ie. the number of 158s/153s/150s substituting for 175s) be once 1 is put on WAG2?

I don't think there are any mainline 47/7s that still have TDM to work with the DBSOs. The spare DBSOs would need modifying to work with available locos similar to the NR modified DBSOS.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't think there are any mainline 47/7s that still have TDM to work with the DBSOs. The spare DBSOs would need modifying to work with available locos similar to the NR modified DBSOS.

Yeah, I forgot to mention you'd have to fit the right sort of TDM (I think the DBSOs in question now have 86/87/90/91 TDM) onto the 47/7s too (mainly picked them for their higher top speed vs other 47s, although as they had TDM once that means there's enough space to fit it). Perhaps the Irish got round to re-guaging their DBSO, so you'd need to put that right too, I think that's it though. Costly though that is, it would solve the issues we have much more cheaply and much quicker than ordering new stock, and without the DBSOs those mark 2s are very little use due to lack of places a loco can run-round and the fact reversals are required on many routes in the Wales franchise (and those that don't may need to split, eg. Cambrian).

as Merlodlliw says, having all these carriages mothballed at Cardiff is immoral when we have a capacity shortage in Wales & Borders, to which I'll add West Wales which loses out on 15 minitue journey time savings on existing infrastructure (Swansea District Line) due partly to shortage of stock. I think now though that a solution to the crowding and an hourly Cambrian service are needed first. If anyone can work out a decent use for 5 4-car mark 2 sets that frees 158s and won't screw up turn-rounds we can all write to our AMs to campaign for it. May I suggest giving Llanddewi Velfrey, Llanddowror and Red Roses 30mph limits, predestrian crossings and wider pavements rather than bypasses, to pay for the 47/7s and DBSOs. Only flaw with that is the timescale might not tie-up.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yeah, I forgot to mention you'd have to fit the right sort of TDM (I think the DBSOs in question now have 86/87/90/91 TDM) onto the 47/7s too (mainly picked them for their higher top speed vs other 47s, although as they had TDM once that means there's enough space to fit it). Perhaps the Irish got round to re-guaging their DBSO, so you'd need to put that right too, I think that's it though. Costly though that is, it would solve the issues we have much more cheaply and much quicker than ordering new stock, and without the DBSOs those mark 2s are very little use due to lack of places a loco can run-round and the fact reversals are required on many routes in the Wales franchise (and those that don't may need to split, eg. Cambrian).

as Merlodlliw says, having all these carriages mothballed at Cardiff is immoral when we have a capacity shortage in Wales & Borders, to which I'll add West Wales which loses out on 15 minitue journey time savings on existing infrastructure (Swansea District Line) due partly to shortage of stock. I think now though that a solution to the crowding and an hourly Cambrian service are needed first. If anyone can work out a decent use for 5 4-car mark 2 sets that frees 158s and won't screw up turn-rounds we can all write to our AMs to campaign for it. May I suggest giving Llanddewi Velfrey, Llanddowror and Red Roses 30mph limits, predestrian crossings and wider pavements rather than bypasses, to pay for the 47/7s and DBSOs. Only flaw with that is the timescale might not tie-up.

We campaigned for the first break point to be used (2008) as a reason to undo the damage the view expressed by the then Head of Rail at WAG (who is now higher up the food chain in the Transport Dept) was that ATW ticked all the boxes in the franchise agreement and there was no reason to review the franchise. Going by the terms of the franchise agreement entirely correct but missing the point entirely. I think the politicians have been put off by advice that it would be too hard to unpick - Arriva would clearly issue a legal challenge. You may have to buy them off- but at what cost? Predicted profits for last 5 years of franchise £50 million plus?

I'd go for the MK2's on the Manchester to Llandudno services. Would free up around 5 175's. So no need to substitute 158's/150's into CDF/ Holyhead diagrams and get some 4 car formations on Manchester to Cardiff and West Wales turns. Hopefully once the on loan 150's are back we get the 158's off Maestro to Cheltenham and the 158 fleet can be concentrated on Holyhead/Chester/Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Birmingham/Cambrian circuit.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'd go for the MK2's on the Manchester to Llandudno services.

I'd tend to disagree with that. There's the neccesary loop at Llandudno, but current diagrams shuttle between Llandudno and the Junction during their turnaround: not feasible with a loco runaround. Plus there's the intention to extend more of the services through to Manchester Airport, which I don't think has loops.

I'd suggest Holyhead-Cardiff instead, as each end can deal with locos easily. Five rakes could take over most the diagrams, (if my ad-hoc mental timetabling is correct) leaving a few early/late services in the hands of 175s for positioning moves to and from Chester.

Running a bit further with this, the Gerallt Gymro rake could even pitch in and help out. Just detach the Mk3 buffet car when the morning service arrives, let the rake go off on another turn, and put the Mk3 on whichever rake for the evening return instead. The WAG could choose to extend their First Class offering by buying more buffet cars, rather than trying to acquire and path in a new train every time.

The free 175s could, of course, cascade to services in South Wales or strengthen existing services as appropriate. Downsides I forsee are a potentially increased journey time due to linespeed restrictions in the Marches, and platform length at some stations (some could be served by other trains instead).

 

[anthony263]

The idea i have is to just scrap both wag's and use the loco hauled stock on the existing Cardiff - Holyhead services andwhich of course could be sped up. How about running non stop from Holyhead - Bangor the limited stops on the rets of the journey to Cardiff. Maybe a local stoping service could be introduced between holyhead & Bangor.

As ATW are looking at using class 67 & DVT why not so this for all of the workings and use the units which have been freed up to boost capacity alsewhere

 

[merlodlliw]

The idea i have is to just scrap both wag's and use the loco hauled stock on the existing Cardiff - Holyhead services andwhich of course could be sped up. How about running non stop from Holyhead - Bangor the limited stops on the rets of the journey to Cardiff. Maybe a local stoping service could be introduced between holyhead & Bangor.

As ATW are looking at using class 67 & DVT why not so this for all of the workings and use the units which have been freed up to boost capacity alsewhere

The only WAG express that can be stopped is "Gerald" the flagship, the contract ends in Dec 2011, current years subsidy is £2M plus ATW keep all fares. Depending on who takes over From Ieuan will have only a very short period to make up his/her mind, All Politicians except Ieuan would axe WAGAIR but can not due to its contract, the only airline that showed an interest & got the contract uses pilots of a certain calibre, as was seen recently in Ireland.

In the real world,if a Company like Arriva took on a contract with no growth,then it would go bust, but we are not in the real world,as Gareth says ticking all the boxes is only half the story. ATW must be laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You may have to buy them off

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying WAG would have to pay ATW to walk away from the franchise to get the mark2s into use? Is there no way they can force ATW to put the existing stock into service under the current franchise?

I'd go for the MK2's on the Manchester to Llandudno services. Would free up around 5 175's. So no need to substitute 158's/150's into CDF/ Holyhead diagrams and get some 4 car formations on Manchester to Cardiff and West Wales turns. Hopefully once the on loan 150's are back we get the 158's off Maestro to Cheltenham and the 158 fleet can be concentrated on Holyhead/Chester/Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Birmingham/Cambrian circuit.

Would the 4 car formations on Manchester to Cardiff and West Wales be 158 or 175? If the latter, maybe it would be better to put the mark2s on there, because I don't think 4-car 175 services (thanks to them not having unit-end corridor connections) would work particularly well. If that allows you to best target the capacity where it is most needed though, it'll have to do. Could you actually run a loco round at Manchester? If not, you still can't get away without the dbsos so you can stick the LHCS wherever gives the best return in terms of capacity where it's needed (whether directly or by casscade).

I'd tend to disagree with that. There's the neccesary loop at Llandudno, but current diagrams shuttle between Llandudno and the Junction during their turnaround: not feasible with a loco runaround. Plus there's the intention to extend more of the services through to Manchester Airport, which I don't think has loops.

I'd suggest Holyhead-Cardiff instead, as each end can deal with locos easily. Five rakes could take over most the diagrams, (if my ad-hoc mental timetabling is correct) leaving a few early/late services in the hands of 175s for positioning moves to and from Chester.

Each end might be able to deal with locos but, as (apart from Gerallt Gymro) the Holyhead - Cardiffs reverse at Chester you'd still need the dbsos. Good idea otherwise though, as it makes more use of the Gerallt Gymro set, I'd go as far as not detaching the Mk3 buffet car provided it gets to where it needs to be for the express turns. From December, the express(es) will (so I've read on here) be 67s with mark3s, so the current mark2 rake will be freed.

The only WAG express that can be stopped is "Gerald" the flagship, the contract ends in Dec 2011, current years subsidy is £2M plus ATW keep all fares.

That is crazy, assuming £2m is the full cost of running the service (and it can't cost much more than that). Subsidy should really be the difference between the total cost and the income generated, only achievable with a nationalised system. ATW must certainly be laughing. Perhaps WAG should have purchased the mark2s and locos and run their express themselves on an open-access basis. Of course ATW would have stopped that by objecting on abstraction grounds.

 

[krus_aragon]

Each end might be able to deal with locos but, as (apart from Gerallt Gymro) the Holyhead - Cardiffs reverse at Chester you'd still need the dbsos.

*smacks palm to forehead*

I'd completely forgotten that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

At the first hint of anything beyond the franchise agreement Arriva put out the begging bowl for more money. WAG happily pays (through clenched teeth from the civil servants) if it aligns with Ministerial priority's. With a 15 year contract to Dec 2018 which they achieve the targets on (fans of the longer franchise be aware) breaking the contract from Govt to get improvements will only come at a price as Arriva management will put there profits before improving services each and every time- hence the wacky cost discussed for WAG 1 and WAG 2 on this forum.

Arriva will argue in court that they achieve all that was asked of them in the legally binding contact and any attempt to force them off it - even if right for transport and the economy- will have to be compensated for.

 

[merlodlliw]

Each end might be able to deal with locos but, as (apart from Gerallt Gymro) the Holyhead - Cardiffs reverse at Chester you'd still need the dbsos. Good idea otherwise though, as it makes more use of the Gerallt Gymro set, I'd go as far as not detaching the Mk3 buffet car provided it gets to where it needs to be for the express turns. From December, the express(es) will (so I've read on here) be 67s with mark3s, so the current mark2 rake will be freed.

That is crazy, assuming £2m is the full cost of running the service (and it can't cost much more than that). Subsidy should really be the difference between the total cost and the income generated, only achievable with a nationalised system. ATW must certainly be laughing. Perhaps WAG should have purchased the mark2s and locos and run their express themselves on an open-access basis. Of course ATW would have stopped that by objecting on abstraction grounds.[/QUOTE]

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................

The then Minister Ieuan declared in his statement "WAG 2" will be push/pulled by 67s from Dec 2011, this will continue until the end of the ATW franchise,a clone of WSMR working.

Unless ATWs palms have been greased, it is presumed" Wag 1" will also be 67s but ATW wont do anything without money on the table & time is tight for a new Minister to come to grips with "Wag 1) I am sure ATW will want more than the £2M for another year(fuel), I would expect ATW to also try for a seven year deal like "Wag2",

The entire scene is farce, certain Civil Servants have been blamed for the monies ATW get out of running these political services, yet it appears the current Minister would not listen to caution or common sense, who ever takes over in May will be sold a pup.

The timetable Dec 2011/May 2012 is being worked on now, so we should all know what is occurring with Wag 1 soon.

 

[The Planner]

ATW are aware that the Gerald II paths can't work with 67s unless they get some sort of dispensation to run 67s faster on the Marches. It isnt any further forward that I know of.

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW are aware that the Gerald II paths can't work with 67s unless they get some sort of dispensation to run 67s faster on the Marches. It isnt any further forward that I know of.

interesting Planner,when at meetings in Cardiff ATW senior staff have signed a £3.5M contract to use 67s from Dec 2011 on Wag 2. for the sole purpose of going via Wrexham. Plus almost £100K a month to run a 175 from May to Dec 2011 on this route while the 67 stock is sourced. My fly on the wall tells me Wag Ex 1(Gerald) is due to go 67s if kept on.

There was a Ministerial statement put up on RF by me about the 67s coming on line from Dec 2011.

 

[jones_bangor]

Maybe a local stoping service could be introduced between holyhead & Bangor.

Judging by the number of passengers that stay on for Holyhead after Bangor, maybe terminate at Bangor! Bring platform 3 (or 4?) back into use and put a 153 on as a stopper.

ATW are aware that the Gerald II paths can't work with 67s unless they get some sort of dispensation to run 67s faster on the Marches. It isnt any further forward that I know of.

Time for Network Rail to demonstrate their "can do" side to WAG me thinks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only WAG express that can be stopped is "Gerald" the flagship, the contract ends in Dec 2011, current years subsidy is £2M plus ATW keep all fares.

How many 100's of millions on the Heads of the Valleys road, and here we are arguing over the crumbs!!

 

[The Planner]

Time for Network Rail to demonstrate their "can do" side to WAG me thinks!

Why ?? the restrictions are likely to be there for a reason. If the case can be proven for the 67s to run at the higher speed and ATW or the WAG will chuck the cash at it then I expect it will get done. Don't for one minute expect NR to turn around and say "yeah, we'll do it for nothing" !!

 

[jones_bangor]

Why ?? the restrictions are likely to be there for a reason. If the case can be proven for the 67s to run at the higher speed and ATW or the WAG will chuck the cash at it then I expect it will get done. Don't for one minute expect NR to turn around and say "yeah, we'll do it for nothing" !!

I don't think anyone or anything does "something for nothing". All I'm saying that it would be NR's interests to start delivering for WAG and rail transport for Wales.

As you say, the restrictions are there for a reason.