Wembley travel fiasco - FA Cup semi final 16/17 April 2022

[LNW-GW Joint]

WCML appears to be closed Euston-Tring/Milton Keynes (MKC) with Avanti starting at MKC or Rugby.
Norton Bridge-Crewe also closed (diversions via Stoke and Alsager).
Closed also north of Carlisle, with MKC-Carlisle running via Stoke/Manchester/Parkside, plus Crewe-Preston shuttle
Closed also Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham Int (diversions via Nuneaton).
Quite a network closure.
That's for Saturday April 16, presumably similar on Sun/Mon.

 

[AlterEgo]

The semi-finals shouldn't be at Wembley anyway, because it devalues the final. They should also put the nice green stanchions back on the goals at Wembley too, like they had before 1996.

But in all seriousness, it is mad to have this game at Wembley. Both the semi-final and the final should be at a neutral ground which doesn't have to be Wembley. Old Trafford is the obvious choice for this one. Villa Park would be an acceptable second choice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2022 ==

Wembley has only been the preferred neutral ground since the new one opened. Prior to that only a handful of semi-finals had been played there.

Correct. Villa Park, Old Trafford, Hillsborough and Highbury were all common grounds in the "old Wembley" times.

 

[aw1972]

There are fewer than 10 teams in the Leagues who haven't played at Wembley so the novelty will have worn off for most.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Wembley was not normally used except for the final, in order to keep the occasion special. The first exception was 1991 when Spurs were drawn against Arsenal and a decison was made to use Wembley as a one-off.

 

[Horizon22]

Wembley has only been the preferred neutral ground since the new one opened. Prior to that only a handful of semi-finals had been played there.

Old Trafford would be the most obvious answer, although Man Utd are scheduled to play Norwich at home on the Saturday so the semi final would need to be on the Sunday which may stretch staffing and policing resources.

Wembley was not normally used except for the final, in order to keep the occasion special. The first exception was 1991 when Spurs were drawn against Arsenal and a decison was made to use Wembley as a one-off.

Fair enough - my knowledge doesn't stretch fair enough back so appreciate that.

 

[zwk500]

There are fewer than 10 teams in the Leagues who haven't played at Wembley so the novelty will have worn off for most.

Having played there once still means a signficant majority of fans will never have been.

Wembley was not normally used except for the final, in order to keep the occasion special. The first exception was 1991 when Spurs were drawn against Arsenal and a decison was made to use Wembley as a one-off.

The reason Wembley is used now is because it needs to repay the debt incurred to build it.

An all-line block all weekend indicates some serious work going on which will have been planned for a long time (several years) and Easter is one of only 2 opportunities for access to a major Main line like this. I don't know exactly what is being done but it won't be anything that could have been done any other way.

 

[The Planner]

Mods feel free to move but thought this was the best place.

Out of interest, what works are taking place over the 15-18th April?

HS2 work at Euston, work in Park St tunnels, Watford North junction S&C, M25 viaduct works, track renewal at Kilburn and Harrow, some tamping jobs and some East West work.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It wont be moved, the FA will lose out too much cash and after 2 years off nothing on at Wembley are desperate for the revenue.

 

[Horizon22]

HS2 work at Euston, work in Park St tunnels, Watford North junction S&C, M25 viaduct works, track renewal at Kilburn and Harrow, some tamping jobs and some East West work.

So a fair bit then!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Whilst service trains are being affected on the WCML, how much scope is there for diversions / charter services to reach an alternative London terminus such as Marylebone or Kings Cross?

 

[nuneatonmark]

The respective clubs could always charter some trains (should be plenty around). Maybe Manchester to St Pancras (assuming it's all open) and Liverpool to Marylebone via Leamington Spa (assuming it's all open)

 

[The Planner]

So a fair bit then!

That doesn't include the work that is being done in the West Mids or for preliminary for Crewe Independent line re-signalling. Got HS2 works at Berkswell, some work for Willenhall and Darlaston new stations, complete bridge replacement between Leamington and Coventry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2022 ==

Whilst service trains are being affected on the WCML, how much scope is there for diversions / charter services to reach an alternative London terminus such as Marylebone or Kings Cross?

The respective clubs could always charter some trains (should be plenty around). Maybe Manchester to St Pancras (assuming it's all open) and Liverpool to Marylebone via Leamington Spa (assuming it's all open)

You will have trouble squeezing anything extra into Marylebone as Chiltern will put in their event timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

The respective clubs could always charter some trains (should be plenty around). Maybe Manchester to St Pancras (assuming it's all open) and Liverpool to Marylebone via Leamington Spa (assuming it's all open)

There aren't trains that can be chartered to run into the other stations even if there were paths. Riviera now appear to only be maintaining a single set of Mark 2f carriages and freight operators most likely can't provide traincrew.

Any idea that EMR could run extra direct trains between Manchester and St Pancras isn't likely either. They might just about be able to increase formations between Sheffield and St Pancras for one or two services. At a guess, Chiltern are likely to already have plans to run longer formations between Birmingham and London within the capability of their fleet.

 

[DanNCL]

The FA were apparently informed of these engineering works back in 2019, long enough ago that they could have changed the dates or the venue of this match without causing any issues for the fans. This is entirely the fault of the FA, and (makes a change!) not the fault of the railway.

 

[The Planner]

The FA also know about when NR are doing engineering works in 2023 and preliminary for 2024 too...

 

[Phil56]

At a guess, Chiltern are likely to already have plans to run longer formations between Birmingham and London within the capability of their fleet.

That's what we used when we went to Wembley for a play off final last May, as the WCML was closed that weekend too! Trains heading South in the morning were full length (but no extra I don't think), but trains heading North after it ended were short at just 4 coaches, so were ridiculously cramped (especially given Covid at that time). And that was for a pretty low attendance (just a few thousand from each team allowed, so max 8k I'd say).

It would be good to think that Chiltern will throw everything at it, i.e. extra services from/to Birmingham, and have full length trains for both getting down and returning for such a big match.

 

[SuspectUsual]

This would be an interesting step to take, as both teams are northern of course and so would make sense, but sets an interesting precedent - has this happened much before in the past?

Wembley was not normally used except for the final, in order to keep the occasion special. The first exception was 1991 when Spurs were drawn against Arsenal and a decison was made to use Wembley as a one-off.

And again two years later, when both semi-finals were at Wembley - again Spurs / Arsenal, and the other was a Sheffield derby

All logic suggests moving the game to Old Trafford - the capacity is about 85% of Wembley so the loss in revenue to the FA wouldn't be enormous. But hey, this is the FA, so I fully expect the match to be played at Wembley with kickoff at 7pm on the Sunday

 

[Kite159]

That's what we used when we went to Wembley for a play off final last May, as the WCML was closed that weekend too! Trains heading South in the morning were full length (but no extra I don't think), but trains heading North after it ended were short at just 4 coaches, so were ridiculously cramped (especially given Covid at that time). And that was for a pretty low attendance (just a few thousand from each team allowed, so max 8k I'd say).

It would be good to think that Chiltern will throw everything at it, i.e. extra services from/to Birmingham, and have full length trains for both getting down and returning for such a big match.

You would hope they will throw extra coaches out for anything from Birmingham to London to cater for the WCML being closed. Especially after the event when the Man City fans return north.

The FA won't move the semifinal, they need the money.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The FA won't move the semifinal, they need the money.

They don't need it, they're greedy for it

 

[zwk500]

They don't need it, they're greedy for it

They needed it before COVID anyway because the debt to build Wembley Stadium is still vast. After COVID they need it even more given how much income they would have lost from England not being allowed crowds. They will also need a fair bit of cash to pay the fine for the atrocious handling of the Euro 2020 Final.

 

[Shrop]

They needed it before COVID anyway because the debt to build Wembley Stadium is still vast. After COVID they need it even more given how much income they would have lost from England not being allowed crowds. They will also need a fair bit of cash to pay the fine for the atrocious handling of the Euro 2020 Final.

Interesting. If they need it to pay the fine, then what they're actually doing is inflicting on to many tens of thousands of supporters, the huge inconvenience of travelling without the availability of the otherwise excellent rail service that runs from both Liverpool and Manchester to London. They are also inflicting likely delays on to many thousands of other road users, not to mention the risk of unsavoury behaviour at all of the motorway service stations, and all this is before we take into account the environmental damage of all the extra travel etc.

So, if the FA had been run correctly, ie without incurring a huge fine, then this use of Wembley would have been less necessary, and yet it's everyone other than the FA who are having to pay the price.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fine for the disorder was something like £85K if I remember. Small change.

It’s all to do with servicing the enormous debt on the stadium and give more events to those who bought corporate “lifetime” tickets.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

They needed it before COVID anyway because the debt to build Wembley Stadium is still vast. After COVID they need it even more given how much income they would have lost from England not being allowed crowds. They will also need a fair bit of cash to pay the fine for the atrocious handling of the Euro 2020 Final.

Not that vast. During Covid's 2019/20 they made a small profit of £1.5m. They owed £134m on an asset (Wembley) for which they turned down £600m in 2018, and will have paid it off in 2024. That debt, and the £85k fine, can be set against annual turnover of £335m.

Unbudgeted though it would be, they could afford it

 

[Snow1964]

It’s an interesting thought, if there are bus substitutes and about 80,000 fans leave Wembley at same time, even if a quarter use train, or rather rail replacement buses, then how many buses do you need ?

 

[wireforever]

I remember it happening for the rugby league cup final at Wembley several years ago over August bank holiday.Warrington hired a train class 67 top and tailed with mark 3 coaches took ages to reach Wembley and five hours to get back home so friends told me.
The FA have plenty of money they should donate semi final ticket sales money to the Ukraine relief fund

 

[patrick.hearn3]

Tbh I think the discussion about if the semis should be at Wembley or not is somewhat missing the point. The same situation could have happened with the final.

Maybe this is my biased view as a football fan because I am impacted by it more, but it does seem football fans especially are the ones who seem to be messed around the most when it comes to disruption on the railways when there are major events going on. Other events like Cheltenham Races, Glastonbury festival or even just regular Wales Rugby matches in Cardiff seem to get a huge amount of effort and collaboration from the ToC's and network rail to make sure extra services can be laid on and planned disruption limited. Yet as soon as its a round ball instead, that effort just isn't there. Hell for the Welsh Rugby example GWR have specifically trained staff and route cleared stock to provide extra services (I'm not saying they were wrong to do so, but it does show how the different events are catered to in regards to transport).

Rugby has in fact been similarly affected

Wales v France fans heading home by train on Friday night are being warned that railway services around Cardiff will only have half the capacity than a normal Saturday afternoon Six Nations match.

The late 8pm kick-off at the Principality Stadium in Cardiff means there are a limited number of rail services available from TfW and other operators after the match.

A difference to some of those events though is that you know where the trains are coming from, so Glasto won't be visited in 2022 by people mostly from Norwich and 2023 by people mostly from Hull, and with short notice of the arrangements. In the FA Cup case, until last weekend those originating stations for the semi-finals could have been Southampton, Nottingham or Middlesborough.

Regardless, the FA has knowingly booked a major event knowing that one major method of access will be unavailable.

 

[Trackman]

It wont be moved, the FA will lose out too much cash and after 2 years off nothing on at Wembley are desperate for the revenue.

The FA have said as much, they are working with the railways and National Express so they say. They really don't give two hoots about the fans. It's not just the WCML chaos either, for a lot of fans it will be unnecessary expense to watch the semi-final in London*- final itself, fair enough. *edited

 

[Mag_seven]

They really don't give two hoots about the fans.

Of course they don't. The prawn sandwich / corporate hospitality brigade will have booked their 5 star hotels in London meanwhile the ordinary fan who works in a factory or office can just get lost.

 

[Trackman]

Of course they don't. The prawn sandwich / corporate hospitality brigade will have booked their 5 star hotels in London meanwhile the ordinary fan who works in a factory or office can just get lost.

Sky / BT etc don't give a stuff either with these early kicks off as some away fans have to set off at 5am, this has been highlighted this season.
--
Going back on topic, wasn't there a semi-final a few years ago were the same thing happened, I think the problem was a late afternoon kick-off and no trains after the final whistle because of a planned possession- I'm sure it was north west clubs involved.

 

[43096]

You could give one argument, that how could anyone predict that 2 North West based clubs would reach the semi finals this year? We could of had anyone from across the country in the semis.

It is always likely that at least one North West club will get to the semi final - 2010 was the last time no North West club got to that stage. The chances of both the top two in the league (city and Liverpool) getting to the semi final would be reasonably foreseeable.