Were "DVT drags" a thing on S&C before the Pendolinos came?

[USRailFan]

Or was the 87/90+DVT removed at Carlisle/Preston and the Mk3 rakes just ran as an ordinary Class 47-hauled train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or was the 87/90+DVT removed at Carlisle/Preston and the Mk3 rakes just ran as an ordinary Class 47-hauled train?

I don't remember if the 87/90 was left on, but the DVT definitely was - it was the brake vehicle. However the 47 would always be on the front because most/all of them aren't TDM push-pull compatible.

 

[Mag_seven]

Or was the 87/90+DVT removed at Carlisle/Preston and the Mk3 rakes just ran as an ordinary Class 47-hauled train?

The AC loco was always removed at Preston (northbound) and Carlisle (Souhbound). I'm not aware of regular dragging of AC locos over the S&C.

 

[hexagon789]

Or was the 87/90+DVT removed at Carlisle/Preston and the Mk3 rakes just ran as an ordinary Class 47-hauled train?

The AC loco would be removed, asides from the unnecessary extra weight, I'm not sure they were/are cleared over the route. When 47s worked Class 86/90 GEML sets from Norwich to Great Yarmouth, there were a number of speed restrictions imposed when the AC loco was left on the sets due to clearances for example.

When the WCML sets became push-pull with DVTs, the DVT replaced the brake vehicles in the sets, so would always be left on unless defective as they provided the required 'brake' vehicle - i.e. with a handbrake.

However the 47 would always be on the front because most/all of them aren't TDM push-pull compatible.

Even those that were, i.e. the Scottish-based 47/7s, would still not be compatible with the DVTs as they had a different more basic TDM system. The DBSOs had to be rewired when they transferred to Anglia as the new TDM system wasn't compatible with the BR/Brush two-wire system. (The 47/7 system was a basic, two-wire system with only four power demand channels and a very limited number of fault indications available. It had been designed to also work with AC electrics, the manual had an equivalent function for Class 85s for each operation, but this was never taken forwards and the newer more flexible TDM system was adopted instead with essentially limitless control of traction demand and far greater functionality.)

 

[30907]

The AC loco was always removed at Preston (northbound) and Carlisle (Souhbound). I'm not aware of regular dragging of AC locos over the S&C.

The reversal at Preston was convenient for that!

For contect, the 1982-3 (winter) timetable shows 1 northbound and 3 southbound trains up to 1500 after which the main line reopened.

 

[greyman42]

There are some videos of these drags from 2002 on You Tube.

 

[308165]

AC electrics were left attached, especially if the diversion wasn't scheduled, though occasionally they would travel through on planned diversions.

I remember an RAF plane crashing near Shap in around 2000 which led to diversions and seeing a 37 dragging a Mk3 rake with DVT and an 87 through Hellifield.

 

[randyrippley]

This is one of those things we've discussed in the past where people who were there and saw it happen were told that what they saw was impossible........
During the weekend closures north of Preston prior to the introduction of the Pendolini, some at least went along the S&C with the electric loco still attached. I've seen a couple at Ribblehead, and rode one Carlisle-Preston on a winter Saturday. After all this time I can't remember what was actually used, but the electric loco was still there. They were all Mk3+DVT sets
From what I can remember, there was a fair bit of comment in the rail press around then over failure rates in the TDM system due to disconnection/reconnection, there being a deliberate policy of avoiding doing this except on shed.