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West Coast Train dispatch methods
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221129
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Happens at quite a few places on the network. Birmingham New St and Man Picc are both RA Dispatch to all services.
They were originally used and installed for loco hauled stock and as they operated alongside 390s for many years I assume they were dispatched in that manner for consistency. The 221s however use the bell buzzer away from RA compulsory stations.
At New St and Man Picc they're used to mitigate the signalling system not meeting the usual standards of overlaps etc, in theory it prevents a train departing with a red signal.
At New St and Man Picc they're used to mitigate the signalling system not meeting the usual standards of overlaps etc, in theory it prevents a train departing with a red signal.
221129
Established Member
Only for some services.
221129
Established Member
Only for ECS movements.
godfreycomplex
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RA indicators are used for all services at New Street, Manchester Piccadilly and Glasgow Queen Street High Level, also Reading 1-3 and all London termini except for Kings Cross and Paddington (DOO stock only) and Waterloo (empties only) (possibly not used at London Bridge for 171s either).
390 trains only use bell buzzer dispatch (under normal circs) at Tamworth, Lichfield, Warrington, Wigan, Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie and Haymarket (and possibly Motherwell). RA everywhere else. 221s bell buzzer except for Euston, New Street and (should they ever end up there) Piccadilly.
There are several places where DOO trains are only ever started with the RA or sometimes CD/RA indicator (or corresponding hand signals) but they’re probably too numerous to list. Slough, Reading, Oxford, Colchester, East Croydon, St Mary Cray, Brighton, Sevenoaks and Gatwick to name but a few.
As for why Avanti use this method, the roots go back to the ancient Egyptians. As we all know there is a substantial complex of sacred pyramids in the Runcorn area, and to fend off the marauders from the north, the charioteers used to offer a blood sacrifice to the sun god Ra, a tradition that carried on into BR days. When Dr Beeching (a High Priest of the rival sacred house of Anubis) came on the scene, he decided that hiring a large contingent of platform staff, revenue protection inspectors, station contracts managers etc solely for the purpose of human sacrifice was a bit of a drain on the training budget so he had the Grand Visier develop the RA indicator as a low-cost substitute (it was originally meant to be a hieroglyphic but they’re quite hard to do in LEDs) Ironically the badlands in the north were among the last to adopt this method, and it’s still said at Tamworth and Penrith an additional staff member is kept in readiness to carry out the divine ritual once again, in the event of a bell buzzer failure.
(Non-facetious answer - it dates from the time of loco haulage when bell buzzers were not fitted. As RA is linked to the aspect of the signal and cannot at most locations be given against a red it was deemed safer to keep the method of dispatch as is when the 390s were introduced. Why a 9 car 390 needs an RA when a 10 car 221 or 12 car 319/350 can be happily dispatched on bells at certain locations I couldn’t tell you, but such is the railway)
390 trains only use bell buzzer dispatch (under normal circs) at Tamworth, Lichfield, Warrington, Wigan, Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie and Haymarket (and possibly Motherwell). RA everywhere else. 221s bell buzzer except for Euston, New Street and (should they ever end up there) Piccadilly.
There are several places where DOO trains are only ever started with the RA or sometimes CD/RA indicator (or corresponding hand signals) but they’re probably too numerous to list. Slough, Reading, Oxford, Colchester, East Croydon, St Mary Cray, Brighton, Sevenoaks and Gatwick to name but a few.
As for why Avanti use this method, the roots go back to the ancient Egyptians. As we all know there is a substantial complex of sacred pyramids in the Runcorn area, and to fend off the marauders from the north, the charioteers used to offer a blood sacrifice to the sun god Ra, a tradition that carried on into BR days. When Dr Beeching (a High Priest of the rival sacred house of Anubis) came on the scene, he decided that hiring a large contingent of platform staff, revenue protection inspectors, station contracts managers etc solely for the purpose of human sacrifice was a bit of a drain on the training budget so he had the Grand Visier develop the RA indicator as a low-cost substitute (it was originally meant to be a hieroglyphic but they’re quite hard to do in LEDs) Ironically the badlands in the north were among the last to adopt this method, and it’s still said at Tamworth and Penrith an additional staff member is kept in readiness to carry out the divine ritual once again, in the event of a bell buzzer failure.
(Non-facetious answer - it dates from the time of loco haulage when bell buzzers were not fitted. As RA is linked to the aspect of the signal and cannot at most locations be given against a red it was deemed safer to keep the method of dispatch as is when the 390s were introduced. Why a 9 car 390 needs an RA when a 10 car 221 or 12 car 319/350 can be happily dispatched on bells at certain locations I couldn’t tell you, but such is the railway)
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I'm not sure that's correct universally. Dispatch staff have given RAs on reds before and been disciplined accordingly.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
We can presumably look forward to HS2 high speed stock doing the same at WCML stations when it comes in then...
virgintrain1
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Never liked dispatching a slam door HST with an RA. As of course no interlock and in theory you could be left on the platform, if the platform staff muck up with or without doors unlocked/open.....which has happened.
godfreycomplex
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I would imagine so.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
"RA" indicators?
"CD" indicators?
Excuse my ignorance...
"CD" indicators?
Excuse my ignorance...
221129
Established Member
Right Away and Close Doors. However CD RA are the correct terms.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Thanks. So are these signs to that effect on the platforms, operated by platform staff? Or am I misunderstanding? (Not unlikely!)
221129
Established Member
Correct. They are light up signs operated by platform staff.
Particularly on stations which are sited on curves, there is also the 'OFF' indicator:
This indicates to platform staff that the signal at the end of the platform is showing a 'proceed' aspect and they can set about dispatching the train.
They operate the 'CD' indicator to tell the driver or guard to close the doors:
and then the same unit is switched to 'RA' for Right Away:
The above are part of the collection at the St Albans South box and will eventually be set up as one of our demonstrations.
The above photos were taken while we were experimenting with 3.5Watt LED lamps to replace the original 55W filament lamps. Quite bright enough for our use at short viewing distances and a lot lighter on power and cable sizes!
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Its part of the dispatch process. Staff would press a TRTS (Train Ready to Start) button normally 2 minutes prior to departure to inform the signaller that the train is ready to depart. In the dispatch process, dispatchers then give CD to tell the driver it is safe to close the doors with a proceed aspect. After a final check of the signal, RA is then given to the driver. The CD/RA indicator(s) will be located at points on the platform.
St Mary Cray (IIRC) and Sevenoaks are bat and flag.
godfreycomplex
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As is Brighton (hence corresponding hand signals, although oftentimes on the South Central the so called disco bat is now used)
Giving the tip to the driver on a red at bat and flag locations is the big one for dispatchers. It isn’t possible to give an RA indication unless the signal is off, because the indicator is interlocked with the signal. The big cock up here is giving RA before CD. The RA indication cannot be cancelled unless the signal is put back to red.
Standard procedure then is to revert to bat and flag assuming a. The dispatcher has the equipment, b. Knows who to use it - neither of which is guaranteed! If they can’t do it you have to wait for someone who can.
Apologies if I’ve missed something obvious, but what do you mean by hand signals?
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O L Leigh
Established Member
I've seen this claimed a few times but, having seen it done*, I'm not sure if it's because it's impossible or if no-one has tried it.
* A dispatcher friend of mine showed me, having first checked that there were no trains around to see it, with the difference being that it doesn't remain illuminated when the key is released.
Never seen them unless they are in the same box as the OFF indicators?
All very interesting, Thank you. Any idea why the 221s are different to the 390s at most locations? Could this be something do do with operating to North Wales and Shrewsbury where 390s don't go.
I think the difference between 390s/221s and 319s/350s will be down to the TOC.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I always assumed those were individual LEDs. How does the actual switchover work, then? Is it mechanical using a sliding mask?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What is it with you and bloody masks.
I almost bet someone would say that but I couldn't think of a different way of putting it
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