West Northants Strategic Plan (Warning! Crayon risk)

[InTheEastMids]

So... A group of councils (Northants CC, South Northants DC, Daventry DC and Northampton Borough) have started consulting on the strategic plan.

On the subject of rail, they are suggesting reopening of Northampton-Market Harborough, which seems a little bit optimistic, given how slow EWR has been. It feels pie in the sky at the moment.

Anyway, the consultation website is below, and the bit on this topic is p22-23 if the consultation PDF

https://westnorthantsplan.inconsult.uk/consult.ti/WNSPIssues/consultationHome

The local planning authorities in West Northamptonshire, i.e. Daventry District, Northampton Borough and South Northamptonshire Councils with support from Northamptonshire County Council, have agreed to prepare a new Strategic Plan for the area. The West Northamptonshire Strategic Plan (WNSP) will set out a spatial vision for the future of the area extended up to 2050. To address the key strategic priorities for the area the scope of the WNSP will include:

• The spatial strategy for the distribution of development – this will include consideration of a range of spatial options to deliver sustainable development.
• Place-shaping / sustainable development – Key principles to ensure quality development and sustainable places including the protection and enhancement of natural/built and historic assets and achieving net biodiversity gain.
• The housing requirement – the number and type of new homes to be provided across West Northamptonshire and the proportion of the overall housing requirement that should be affordable.
• Economic growth – Targets for the provision of jobs and employment land in West Northamptonshire and guidance on the strategic locations for new employment land to meet the jobs requirement. New policy guidance for town centres and retail development.
• Strategic infrastructure – The key primary infrastructure projects that are required to deliver the strategy such as strategic transport schemes utility networks and community facilities.
• Health - ensuring people can lead active lifestyles, including access to good quality open space, natural and semi natural greenspace and enjoy cleaner air.

The Issues consultation is the first stage in preparing the new Strategic Plan. We have produced an Issues consultation document which is designed to stimulate debate at an early stage and it is important to emphasise that no decisions have yet been made on the scale of growth or where that growth should be located. We want to engage with stakeholders and communities across the area and work together to ensure that we prepare the best plan possible for a sustainable future. The Issues document can be viewed below and sets out a series of consultation questions for you to respond to. Please read the document and answer the questions using the online form.

You have until 11/10 to make your views known.

 

[A0wen]

So... A group of councils (Northants CC, South Northants DC, Daventry DC and Northampton Borough) have started consulting on the strategic plan.

On the subject of rail, they are suggesting reopening of Northampton-Market Harborough, which seems a little bit optimistic, given how slow EWR has been. It feels pie in the sky at the moment.

Anyway, the consultation website is below, and the bit on this topic is p22-23 if the consultation PDF

https://westnorthantsplan.inconsult.uk/consult.ti/WNSPIssues/consultationHome

You have until 11/10 to make your views known.

A little optimistic is an understatement - I'm not sure what the justification is for looking at this one - yes it gives access to Leicester from Northampton, but that's all it achieves - and given the MML's capacity is limited as is the WCMLs, I'm not sure a unit shuttling back and forth between Leicester and Northampton is going work.

 

[59CosG95]

So... A group of councils (Northants CC, South Northants DC, Daventry DC and Northampton Borough) have started consulting on the strategic plan.

On the subject of rail, they are suggesting reopening of Northampton-Market Harborough, which seems a little bit optimistic, given how slow EWR has been. It feels pie in the sky at the moment.

Anyway, the consultation website is below, and the bit on this topic is p22-23 if the consultation PDF

https://westnorthantsplan.inconsult.uk/consult.ti/WNSPIssues/consultationHome

You have until 11/10 to make your views known.

I'm not sure what the Northampton & Lamport Railway would make of this, given that the proposed line runs over their alignment.

 

[Senex]

I'm not sure what the Northampton & Lamport Railway would make of this, given that the proposed line runs over their alignment.

And would anyone really want to restore as a main line a piece of railway (built on the cheap) that had such a poor alignment?

 

[A0wen]

And would anyone really want to restore as a main line a piece of railway (built on the cheap) that had such a poor alignment?

In the normal world, no. In the world that is Railforums, you can bet your life on it. Cue endless debate about how this could provide a wonderful service which would like Watford and Leicester for the three people a year who need to make that journey. And when somebody really gets to the bottom of the crayon box, expect some nonsense which ties it to EWR so you'll end up with a pseudo GCR running Marylebone, Aylesbury, MK, Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield and onto Manchester using a reopened Woodhead route and run using LHCS.

The biggest issue for rail travel in Northants is capacity and journey times, particularly Northampton to London. But also improving access to rail in the west of the county i.e the Brackley area.

 

[adamedwards]

Post HS2 it will surely be better to run a Northampton - Rugby - Nuneaton (reverse) - Leicester service, ideally as an all electric local service from Euston. Until HS2 no room on the track.

The only justification for the old line might be as a catalyst for housing along the route.

 

[geoffk]

Wasn't there a Bradford - Poole summer Saturday train which ran this way when the GC closed? Midland to Market Harborough then Northampton, Bletchley, Oxford.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

. . . And when somebody really gets to the bottom of the crayon box, expect some nonsense which ties it to EWR so you'll end up with a pseudo GCR running Marylebone, Aylesbury, MK, Northampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield and onto Manchester using a reopened Woodhead route and run using LHCS.

It is far more likely that someone will suggest extending the Oxford/Milton Keynes service to Leicester via this re-opened route.

 

[A0wen]

Post HS2 it will surely be better to run a Northampton - Rugby - Nuneaton (reverse) - Leicester service, ideally as an all electric local service from Euston. Until HS2 no room on the track.

The only justification for the old line might be as a catalyst for housing along the route.

You'd need quite a reversal at Nuneaton to make that work. Don't forget the Leicester lines are completely segregated through Nuneaton station. And I don't think there's access from the old platforms onto the Leicester line. Either way, I don't believe there's the demand for a Northampton - Leicester service - getting Northampton linked onto the TV again would be more helpful rather than routing pretty much everything via Birmingham as that then opens up 1 change options at Nuneaton and Tamworth - which means Leicester, Derby and Sheffield and without the additional journey time of going into and out of Birmingham.

 

[A0wen]

It is far more likely that someone will suggest extending the Oxford/Milton Keynes service to Leicester via this re-opened route.

That's done the rounds before - and there's pretty much no time improvement to the current routes for getting from either Oxford or MK to Leicester. And if EWR goes over to Bedford, Oxford gains another option for accessing Leicester depending on the MML future timetable. And if you were going to extend to Leicester, why not do it using EWR / MML rather than push to reopening Northampton - Harborough which doesn't make alot of sense and will cost more ?

 

[MarkyT]

Northampton - Wellingborough would be more useful I'd have thought, not that it's any more likely. You could still get from Northampton to Market Harborough and Leicester directly that way, just via two additional large towns en route, both in Northamptonshire. Or alternatively the trains could branch off to Corby then go directly to Stamford and Peterborough via a new curve at Manton/Wing. With a reversal at Northampton through trains could run to Oxford via MK, the Bletchley flyover and EWR.

 

[Camden]

M Harboro does seem a strange choice. Northampton to Wellingborough as suggested above would provide direct access to the string of key Northants towns, plus Leicester. Extend Corby to Peterborough, as has been mooted forever, and it's a whole other ballgame, including no doubt for the profitability of the Corby to London services (and more capacity Peterborough to London).

 

[geoffk]

M Harboro does seem a strange choice. Northampton to Wellingborough as suggested above would provide direct access to the string of key Northants towns, plus Leicester. Extend Corby to Peterborough, as has been mooted forever, and it's a whole other ball game, including no doubt for the profitability of the Corby to London services (and more capacity Peterborough to London).

I was in Northants recently but don't know it in any detail. I thought that Wellingborough London Road station had been obliterated by the A45 improvements. Northampton is a large town now and suffers from a lack of rail connections to the east.

 

[johnnychips]

I am genuinely not being sarcastic, but how does it ‘suffer’? Is there evidence of great inconvenience being caused?

 

[geoffk]

I am genuinely not being sarcastic, but how does it ‘suffer’? Is there evidence of great inconvenience being caused?

I suppose I meant it lacks rail connections which other towns of its size have. Whether it's feasible to put them back is another matter.

 

[alistairlees]

Northampton has a population of 215,000. Leicester has a population of 330,000. The distance as the crow flies is 29 miles, by road 32 miles, and if rail were reinstated via Market Harborough I would guess the distance by train would be around 36 miles. I would have thought that this is precisely what rail is best at - connecting large urban areas that are close to one another. Northampton, despite its central position in the country, is incredibly badly served by rail. There is no reasonable rail journey to Leicester or Nottingham, despite their relative proximity. Nor to Bedford or Luton. Nor to Wellingborough or Kettering, as others have pointed out. Strategically we should be looking at missing network connectivity, as this will have proportionately greater wider network benefits, by making other journeys easier and more likely to be made by rail. Yet posters on this forum write as though this is a ridiculous suggestion. Really?

 

[muddythefish]

I am genuinely not being sarcastic, but how does it ‘suffer’? Is there evidence of great inconvenience being caused?

Yes. Commutes into Northampton that took 30 minutes years ago now take an hour. There has been huge population growth in the Nene valley, with alot more to come. Wellingborough, Rushden, Raunds, Higham Ferrers and other places have expanded enormously in the past 20 years, and the A45, the only east-west road, is extremely busy. A reopened Northampton - Wellingborough railway and beyond strikes me as much more useful than the Mkt Harborough route.

 

[deltic08]

Northampton has a population of 215,000. Leicester has a population of 330,000. The distance as the crow flies is 29 miles, by road 32 miles, and if rail were reinstated via Market Harborough I would guess the distance by train would be around 36 miles. I would have thought that this is precisely what rail is best at - connecting large urban areas that are close to one another. Northampton, despite its central position in the country, is incredibly badly served by rail. There is no reasonable rail journey to Leicester or Nottingham, despite their relative proximity. Nor to Bedford or Luton. Nor to Wellingborough or Kettering, as others have pointed out. Strategically we should be looking at missing network connectivity, as this will have proportionately greater wider network benefits, by making other journeys easier and more likely to be made by rail. Yet posters on this forum write as though this is a ridiculous suggestion. Really?

Good for you. I think the same with populations of this size and not linked by rail.

 

[MarkyT]

Northamptonshire is fairly sparsely and disconnectedly rail served. Of the four other stations in the county, only Long Buckley is reachable by direct train from the county town. Oddly, the proposed connection to Market Harborough, if built without intermediate rural stations as is usual in the county, would not increase the number of stations in the county, nor increase intra-county rail travel opportunities between existing stations one bit, although I appreciate they're thinking in terms of links to nearby large cities.

 

[A0wen]

Northamptonshire is fairly sparsely and disconnectedly rail served. Of the four other stations in the county, only Long Buckley is reachable by direct train from the county town. Oddly, the proposed connection to Market Harborough, if built without intermediate rural stations as is usual in the county, would not increase the number of stations in the county, nor increase intra-county rail travel opportunities between existing stations one bit, although I appreciate they're thinking in terms of links to nearby large cities.

You're making a mistake which many people who don't live or know Northamptonshire do, which is assuming that a link to the county town is considered important - it really isn't.

People in places like Thrapston or Oundle are more concerned about having a decent link to Peterborough as its closer and has most of the facilities they want. In Brackley's case people are looking to Bicester, Banbury or even Milton Keynes - again Northampton is something of an irrelevance to them even if it is the county town. If you look at medical facilities if you're in Brackley you'd get referred to hospital in either Banbury or for more serious conditions to John Radcliffe in Oxford - you won't get referred to Northampton. For Thrapston you'd get Kettering General or Hinchingbrooke at Huntingdon.

Geographically Northants is an 'east west' county when the major transport links are 'north south' - the fact that few towns have a direct rail link with Northampton matters not one jot. It's alot like Cheshire in that respect - places like Macclesfield or Congleton don't have a link to Chester and aren't bothered by it - because they have links to Stoke (for Hanley) or Manchester which are nearer and have the key facilties.

I actually *live* in Northampton and have been into Northampton town centre once, maybe twice in the last year - that's how important it is to me. If I need shopping there are other places, if I want leisure there are other places. This "must have a link to the county town" is being overplayed in importance and for most people is an irrelevance.

 

[Camden]

Geographically Northants is an 'east west' county when the major transport links are 'north south' - the fact that few towns have a direct rail link with Northampton matters not one jot. It's alot like Cheshire in that respect - places like Macclesfield or Congleton don't have a link to Chester and aren't bothered by it - because they have links to Stoke (for Hanley) or Manchester which are nearer and have the key facilties.

I actually *live* in Northampton and have been into Northampton town centre once, maybe twice in the last year - that's how important it is to me.

What you suggest are reasons for not considering market town linking is I would suggest a reason to.

The issue for connectivity isn't always about what people want right now, but around a strategy of what is wanted to be achieved.

You say you don't do into your own town centre. Presumably that's because it's pretty dumpy these days. Your M&S is now a pound shop, your department stores are closed, the market a shadow of its former self, so why would you? So, question: what if it didn't have to be that way? What if Northampton was better able to compete for quality attention, in the same way Manchester, Birmingham, and dare I say it Milton Keynes? Presumably, if your town centre was worth visiting, you'd make the effort, as would anyone else who can reasonably get there.

That then begs the question, to anyone who wants Northampton to have a town centre, what needs to change.

Fundamentally, would a rail link to another city change things for Northampton? I can't see it. Northampton already has frequent services to the country's two biggest, plus MK, plus direct services to Liverpool via Crewe (a major interchange for services to Manchester and Scotland). Its pre-existing connectivity in many ways far outstrips its population base.

As an alternative, what if, in addition to that city link, Northampton was able to significantly grow its commuter corridor, however? That could change things significantly. At present, a Corby resident couldn't possibly hold down a job in Northampton without a car, and even then it might be tough going. Northampton goes from being an irrelevance to these towns, to a place to look for work, shop, visit. The prospect of that pricks the ears of companies and investors.

Throw in that Thameslink extension from Corby to Peterborough, and both Northampton and Peterborough and all the towns in between could attract significant economic interest, enabling them to compete for jobs (and therefore urban vitality) against the UK's large urban areas.

The Cheshire analogy doesn't work. West Cheshire has Liverpool, East Cheshire has Manchester. Northampton only has its towns and surrounding similar counties.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The only justification for the old line might be as a catalyst for housing along the route.

This would undoubtedly be part of it, Kingsthorpe is extremely congested, so providing alternatives is with exploring. I think the strategy also talks about road building there to address this

As an alternative, what if, in addition to that city link, Northampton was able to significantly grow its commuter corridor

That only makes sense if the station area has workplaces within walking distance that provide enough high value jobs that cover season ticket costs. Think you'd need the kind of regeneration around St James that -for instance- Bristol TM has around Temple Quay (and Temple Quarter). Of course this is the wrong way round... My logic here is about opening a railway line and then what you'd need to do to make it worthwhile. However Northampton needs to think much more deeply about what kind of place it should be, because of eg how Milton Keynes has developed, because it is to be just a big amorphous sprawl of housing and light industry. I agree with the view that the centre is an irrelevance.

 

[Camden]

If the town is ever to recover and have those sorts of jobs you speak of, it needs the investment to come first. Gold Rushes are rare. Most urban development and interest happens as a result of private money following public.

There is a strong argument for encouraging all towns and cities of Northampton's size to go this "regional focus" route, to ease pressure on London.

 

[Mordac]

What you suggest are reasons for not considering market town linking is I would suggest a reason to.

The issue for connectivity isn't always about what people want right now, but around a strategy of what is wanted to be achieved.

You say you don't do into your own town centre. Presumably that's because it's pretty dumpy these days. Your M&S is now a pound shop, your department stores are closed, the market a shadow of its former self, so why would you? So, question: what if it didn't have to be that way? What if Northampton was better able to compete for quality attention, in the same way Manchester, Birmingham, and dare I say it Milton Keynes? Presumably, if your town centre was worth visiting, you'd make the effort, as would anyone else who can reasonably get there.

That then begs the question, to anyone who wants Northampton to have a town centre, what needs to change.

Fundamentally, would a rail link to another city change things for Northampton? I can't see it. Northampton already has frequent services to the country's two biggest, plus MK, plus direct services to Liverpool via Crewe (a major interchange for services to Manchester and Scotland). Its pre-existing connectivity in many ways far outstrips its population base.

As an alternative, what if, in addition to that city link, Northampton was able to significantly grow its commuter corridor, however? That could change things significantly. At present, a Corby resident couldn't possibly hold down a job in Northampton without a car, and even then it might be tough going. Northampton goes from being an irrelevance to these towns, to a place to look for work, shop, visit. The prospect of that pricks the ears of companies and investors.

Throw in that Thameslink extension from Corby to Peterborough, and both Northampton and Peterborough and all the towns in between could attract significant economic interest, enabling them to compete for jobs (and therefore urban vitality) against the UK's large urban areas.

The Cheshire analogy doesn't work. West Cheshire has Liverpool, East Cheshire has Manchester. Northampton only has its towns and surrounding similar counties.

Speaking as someone who lived there until a few months ago, no one wants to go in there because both public transport and parking is terrible for accessing it, and when you do get there you'll be constantly harassed by scum.

 

[A0wen]

What you suggest are reasons for not considering market town linking is I would suggest a reason to.

The issue for connectivity isn't always about what people want right now, but around a strategy of what is wanted to be achieved.

You say you don't do into your own town centre. Presumably that's because it's pretty dumpy these days. Your M&S is now a pound shop, your department stores are closed, the market a shadow of its former self, so why would you? So, question: what if it didn't have to be that way? What if Northampton was better able to compete for quality attention, in the same way Manchester, Birmingham, and dare I say it Milton Keynes? Presumably, if your town centre was worth visiting, you'd make the effort, as would anyone else who can reasonably get there.

That then begs the question, to anyone who wants Northampton to have a town centre, what needs to change.

The town centre thing is a complete irrelevance to a rail link. The station is outside the town centre - it's also away from most of the key areas of employment.

Fundamentally, would a rail link to another city change things for Northampton? I can't see it. Northampton already has frequent services to the country's two biggest, plus MK, plus direct services to Liverpool via Crewe (a major interchange for services to Manchester and Scotland). Its pre-existing connectivity in many ways far outstrips its population base.

No - because Northampton already has links to London, Milton Keynes, Coventry and Birmingham. All of which are more significant than Leicester is.

As an alternative, what if, in addition to that city link, Northampton was able to significantly grow its commuter corridor, however? That could change things significantly. At present, a Corby resident couldn't possibly hold down a job in Northampton without a car, and even then it might be tough going. Northampton goes from being an irrelevance to these towns, to a place to look for work, shop, visit. The prospect of that pricks the ears of companies and investors.

Even if you had a rail link, they still wouldn't be able to hold down that job without a car - because the key employement areas of Northampton are on the edge - not in the town centre - so look at Brackmills, Moulton Park, Sixfields, Swan Valley - they're all miles from the station.

Throw in that Thameslink extension from Corby to Peterborough, and both Northampton and Peterborough and all the towns in between could attract significant economic interest, enabling them to compete for jobs (and therefore urban vitality) against the UK's large urban areas.

Please put the crayons away. Thameslink IS NOT going to be extended to Peterborough - it's not even being extended to Corby - there simply isn't the capacity to do that - add in you'd have to make a new curve at Manton and wire from Corby through Stamford to Peterborough.

The Cheshire analogy doesn't work. West Cheshire has Liverpool, East Cheshire has Manchester. Northampton only has its towns and surrounding similar counties.

It does, in the sense that you have certain towns gravitating towards certain 'large towns / cities'. There is no 'pull' to Northampton - indeed from places like Corby or Brackley there never has been. Corby never had a direct rail link with Northampton, nor did Kettering. Nor did Brackley - the slow infrequent S&MJR which closed to passengers in 1952 predating Beeching ran from Blisworth.

Reinstating Northampton to Leicester, Northampton to Peterborough or the SMJR are all problems which would be looking for solutions. They're not creating services and journey opportunities for which there is some pent up demand which isn't being met.

 

[A0wen]

Speaking as someone who lived there until a few months ago, no one wants to go in there because both public transport and parking is terrible for accessing it, and when you do get there you'll be constantly harassed by scum.

There's also a small matter that high-streets up and down the country are dying because people's shopping habits have changed fundamentally thanks to the internet. Why go into town, get fleeced by your local council for parking charges, wander round shops which don't have what you want and pay for an overpriced coffee when you can do your shopping from the comfort of your armchair?

As an example I routinely do the family weekly food shop on line on a Sunday evening to get it delivered on Monday evening. Last time I needed a new washing machine I didn't even bother heading to the shops, I just checked out the prices and options on Curry's, John Lewis and AO.com's websites before buying. If I want a new book or DVD, then it's Amazon. All banking is done online - my bank will even allow me to deposit cheques via their app now. The only time I go to a physical shop is when I'm after new clothes or shoes because I generally want to try them on - but do I head to the town centre? Not a chance. Or I need something DIY / garden related, in which case it's heading to the local DIY shed / garden centre which are never in the town centre.

 

[Ken H]

This would undoubtedly be part of it, Kingsthorpe is extremely congested, so providing alternatives is with exploring. I think the strategy also talks about road building there to address this



That only makes sense if the station area has workplaces within walking distance that provide enough high value jobs that cover season ticket costs. Think you'd need the kind of regeneration around St James that -for instance- Bristol TM has around Temple Quay (and Temple Quarter). Of course this is the wrong way round... My logic here is about opening a railway line and then what you'd need to do to make it worthwhile. However Northampton needs to think much more deeply about what kind of place it should be, because of eg how Milton Keynes has developed, because it is to be just a big amorphous sprawl of housing and light industry. I agree with the view that the centre is an irrelevance.

I worked in north northampton for a bit. What you say about Kingsthorpe and surrounding area is true. Main roads gridlocked and residential streeets as rat-runs.Maybe a better investment would be a tram from the centre partially using the old rail line then branching east up boughton rd to the uni.

 

[alistairlees]

I think this needs to be moved to the speculative threads part of the forum.

 

[Camden]

There's also a small matter that high-streets up and down the country are dying because people's shopping habits have changed fundamentally thanks to the internet. Why go into town, get fleeced by your local council for parking charges, wander round shops which don't have what you want and pay for an overpriced coffee when you can do your shopping from the comfort of your armchair?

Which begs the question as to why the high streets in some cities are not just surviving, but thriving. Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, all seeing footfall, spend and duration of stay going up. Indeed, in some cases this effect spilling out into some of their suburban town centres.

Why do some thrive as others die. The answer isn't simple, and the solutions are not simplistic.

It takes a vision, a strategy and a direction over small thinking. I would have thought that would fit entirely with the council's request for comment.

I agree, by the way, Thameslink will never as it stands be extended beyond Corby. A step change approach involving Northampton might change that (being the point), but not for the sake of itself. (FYI, Corby-London rolling stock is due a change. This is inevitably part of paving the way for the service eventual transfer to Thameslink. I said years ago this would happen, I'm rarely wrong!!)

 

[A0wen]

Which begs the question as to why the high streets in some cities are not just surviving, but thriving. Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, all seeing footfall, spend and duration of stay going up. Indeed, in some cases this effect spilling out into some of their suburban town centres.

Why do some thrive as others die. The answer isn't simple, and the solutions are not simplistic.

It takes a vision, a strategy and a direction over small thinking. I would have thought that would fit entirely with the council's request for comment.

I agree, by the way, Thameslink will never as it stands be extended beyond Corby. A step change approach involving Northampton might change that (being the point), but not for the sake of itself. (FYI, Corby-London rolling stock is due a change. This is inevitably part of paving the way for the service eventual transfer to Thameslink. I said years ago this would happen, I'm rarely wrong!!)

I know the rolling stock is due a change - but the challenge will be IF you extend Thameslink to Corby, you'll kill the journey times north of Bedford making them uncompetitive - that's the big difference compared to the electrification of the ECML 30 years ago, where places like Sandy & St Neots gained a massive journey time improvment to both London & Peterborough compared to what they had with the old Hitchin - Huntingdon DMU shuttle. Current TL services take 19 minutes longer to Bedford than the EMT services do - so the simple option of extending TL services north of Bedford will kill journey times for places like Wellingborough or Kettering - adding about 30% to them. It'll also reopen the can of worms about ticket prices - where Wellingborough & Kettering are paying Inter City fare levels compared to Bedford, St Neots or Sandy which are paying suburban levels.