Westbury Cement Works (Westbury Tarmac)

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Several trains have recently started serving Westbury Cement Works (Westbury Tarmac on RTT). Given that the cement works is long closed, the chimney demolished, what are these trains carrying?

 

[Signal_Box]

Freightliner are using the place to stable wagons saves paying DB access fees to the Westbury Yards.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Freightliner are using the place to stable wagons saves paying DB access fees to the Westbury Yards.

Thanks

 

[cossie4i]

It’s been in use by Freightliner for a year.
Trains run round when going to the Southern and some stable overnight for the Avonmouth or Oxford.
As said it’s to save on paying DB to use Westbury Yard.

 

[neilmc]

If you told your enthusiast self fifty years ago there would come a day when a UK railway operator would stable wagons in an old cement works because a German railway operator owned the main line sidings you'd consider there to be a serious mental health issue arising.

 

[DarloRich]

If you told your enthusiast self fifty years ago there would come a day when a UK railway operator would stable wagons in an old cement works because a German railway operator owned the main line sidings you'd consider there to be a serious mental health issue arising.

an American owned operator

 

[Dr Hoo]

If you told your enthusiast self fifty years ago there would come a day when a UK railway operator would stable wagons in an old cement works because a German railway operator owned the main line sidings you'd consider there to be a serious mental health issue arising.

I'm not sure that things are so different. Even back in BR's day private owner wagons could attract 'siding rent' charges if left cluttering up important yards (such as Westbury). So stabling in private sidings was incentivised.

I thought that most of Westbury's sidings were needed for 'the railway's' own traffic (i.e. ballast and engineering trains) anyway - as at Crewe, Tyne, Bescot and so forth.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Of course, the benefit of using Westbury yard is that it is properly segregated away from the main passenger lines and does not require the provision of a shunter (person) in order to clear the main running lines. Using the cement works means impinging on the B&H (in both directions when exiting) at Heywood Road Jcn which potentially delays through traffic.

What is the situation at Acton Yard out of interest, is that DB-owned too?

 

[cossie4i]

What is the situation at Acton Yard out of interest, is that DB-owned too?

Yes, which means Freightliner get charged to use it.

Of course, the benefit of using Westbury yard is that it is properly segregated away from the main passenger lines and does not require the provision of a shunter (person) in order to clear the main running lines. Using the cement works means impinging on the B&H (in both directions when exiting) at Heywood Road Jcn which potentially delays through traffic.

You still require a shunter to access both the Up and Down yards at Westbury.
Trains can arrive/depart from the Up/Down Reception Roads without a shunter.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

You still require a shunter to access both the Up and Down yards at Westbury.
Trains can arrive/depart from the Up/Down Reception Roads without a shunter.

Indeed, and this is my point. If (for whatever reason) the Cement Works shunter isn’t available then the train will stand on the main line, blocking it, until it is admitted. One would hope that FL have a robust system whereby trains will not depart the quarries until the shunter is confirmed to be in place.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Indeed, and this is my point. If (for whatever reason) the Cement Works shunter isn’t available then the train will stand on the main line, blocking it, until it is admitted. One would hope that FL have a robust system whereby trains will not depart the quarries until the shunter is confirmed to be in place.

I can't see why this sort of thing is such a big deal. It has long been the case that freight track access agreements require the operator to arrange to promptly clear the train off the main Network Rail system (whether into a 'yard', 'terminal', 'depot' or whatever).

[From the template ORR agreement]:

1. Movements of trains onto and off the Network
   1. Suitable access

In order that railway vehicles under the control of the Train Operator be promptly:

1. accepted off the Network; and/or
2. presented onto the Network,

the Train Operator shall ensure that in respect of each Nominated Location suitable access has been granted to it in relation to such location by the party which controls the relevant facility connected to the Network at the Nominated Location.

 

[muddythefish]

If you told your enthusiast self fifty years ago there would come a day when a UK railway operator would stable wagons in an old cement works because a German railway operator owned the main line sidings you'd consider there to be a serious mental health issue arising.

The complete nonsense of privatisation. In any sane world it just would not happen.

 

[Dai Corner]

The complete nonsense of privatisation. In any sane world it just would not happen.

If they're owned by DB, aren't they private sidings just like the Cement Works?

 

[Mollman]

What is the situation at Acton Yard out of interest, is that DB-owned too?

Yes, which means Freightliner get charged to use it.

Which has led to Freightliner deploying mid-train locos on jumbo trains to avoid spending too long splitting / joining in Acton Yard. One wonders how high DB's bid was for the work if Freightliner could undercut them despite the former owning a lot of the vital infrastructure on route.

 

[Freightmaster]

One wonders how high DB's bid was for the work if Freightliner could undercut them despite the former owning a lot of the vital infrastructure on route.

I know what you mean, but I think it's actually the other way round: Freightliner was able to put in a low bid because they
don't own a lot of expensive to maintain 'legacy' infrastructure such as yards and depots.

But I get the feeling that they didn't realise that DB would retaliate by charging punitive fees for using those facilities!





MARK

 

[Dr Hoo]

I know what you mean, but I think it's actually the other way round: Freightliner was able to put in a low bid because they
don't own a lot of expensive to maintain 'legacy' infrastructure such as yards and depots.

But I get the feeling that they didn't realise that DB would retaliate by charging punitive fees for using those facilities!

MARK

I'm not sure that any facility owner can get away with charging 'punitive' rates. That would seem to be 'abuse of a dominant position' in competition law terms AIUI. ORR is, of course, the regulatory body for both track access and railway competition issues.

It certainly used to be the case that there was a standard (modest) fee between all of the freight operators for basic services like a run-round move or a crew change in 'somebody else's' sidings. That is slightly different to leaving rakes of idle wagons cluttering up the place, potentially for days on end.

As I have noted above, even BR could charge 'siding rent' for private-owner wagons left in its yards for lengthy periods for the owner's convenience.

 

[43096]

I know what you mean, but I think it's actually the other way round: Freightliner was able to put in a low bid because they
don't own a lot of expensive to maintain 'legacy' infrastructure such as yards and depots.

But I get the feeling that they didn't realise that DB would retaliate by charging punitive fees for using those facilities!





MARK

Perhaps we should have gone down the same route as Austria where the infrastructure authority is responsible for the yards (and shunting in them) with a standard set of rates for all operators.

 

[GB]

Which has led to Freightliner deploying mid-train locos on jumbo trains to avoid spending too long splitting / joining in Acton Yard. One wonders how high DB's bid was for the work if Freightliner could undercut them despite the former owning a lot of the vital infrastructure on route.

Didn't think locos mid train were allowed?...at least not for anything other than an emergency.

 

[PG]

Didn't think locos mid train were allowed?...at least not for anything other than an emergency.

Does that apply to locos Dead in Transit where they are effectively just part of the consist? I don't know as I'm not railway, just my impression that could be conveyed mid consist, so happy to be corrected.

 

[JN114]

Does that apply to locos Dead in Transit where they are effectively just part of the consist? I don't know as I'm not railway, just my impression that could be conveyed mid consist, so happy to be corrected.

Didn't think locos mid train were allowed?...at least not for anything other than an emergency.

Ordinarily not allowed, any Dead in Transit locos must be marshalled directly behind leading loco (which leads to over the top YouTube video titles like “Mega-Rare SEVEN 66s to pull 1 China clay wagon”)

Freightliner have secured ORR and Network Rail approval to marshall dead locos mid-train (in the correct position to split portions) on a trial basis for some of their Mendip work, allowing them to forgo use of Acton on some workings.

 

[westerndave]

I'm not sure that any facility owner can get away with charging 'punitive' rates. That would seem to be 'abuse of a dominant position' in competition law terms AIUI. ORR is, of course, the regulatory body for both track access and railway competition issues.

It certainly used to be the case that there was a standard (modest) fee between all of the freight operators for basic services like a run-round move or a crew change in 'somebody else's' sidings. That is slightly different to leaving rakes of idle wagons cluttering up the place, potentially for days on end.

As I have noted above, even BR could charge 'siding rent' for private-owner wagons left in its yards for lengthy periods for the owner's convenience.

Who says it’s a “punitive” rate? Network rail base charges on weight and type of train and charge for leaving trains in stations so I guess there’s already a “going rate” and DB a have to make some money somewhere.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Who says it’s a “punitive” rate? Network rail base charges on weight and type of train and charge for leaving trains in stations so I guess there’s already a “going rate” and DB a have to make some money somewhere.

I was referencing a post by @Freightmaster (who did not reveal the basis of the claim).

 

[Donny_m]

Yes, which means Freightliner get charged to use it.


You still require a shunter to access both the Up and Down yards at Westbury.
Trains can arrive/depart from the Up/Down Reception Roads without a shunter.

Would you be able to explain this to me, I’m just interested. By shunter do you mean a human that meets the train and takes over just for entering / switching / leaving the yard or a shunter loco? Westbury Tarmac don’t use a loco so assume you mean a person. Can a driver not also do this? Is this why sometimes when a train arrived at a siding or terminal someone meets them in a car and jumps in? I guess not all drivers will know how to use all yards depots sidings and terminals.

 

[cossie4i]

In this instance the shunter is a person.
He/She does not take over the train but relays instructions to you via radio.
ie, drawing forward, setting back, ease coupling, attaching, detaching etc.
Near enough every yard requires the presence of a shunter to access a yard.
They are in charge of all yard movements and are referred to as the PIC (person in charge)
The PIC contacts the signaller to gain control of a yard, the signaller then has to contact that PIC if they need to send anymore trains into that yard.
As a driver you do not enter any yard you don’t have route knowledge of.

I hope this helps.

 

[Western Sunset]

The down reception (DR) line at Westbury seems to be being used as a run-round more now too. Trains off the Salisbury line, or even from Exeter, heading for Whatley or Merehead seem to be parked on the DR whilst the loco uncouples and runs round via one of the platform lines in the station. This obviously blocks the DR for some time, so through freights have to use the platforms. Might be a case for reinstating the other island platform fully - currently just one face is used (plat 1).

 

[Donny_m]

In this instance the shunter is a person......

I hope this helps.

Thanks

 

[DelW]

Ordinarily not allowed, any Dead in Transit locos must be marshalled directly behind leading loco (which leads to over the top YouTube video titles like “Mega-Rare SEVEN 66s to pull 1 China clay wagon”)

Freightliner have secured ORR and Network Rail approval to marshall dead locos mid-train (in the correct position to split portions) on a trial basis for some of their Mendip work, allowing them to forgo use of Acton on some workings.

Bearing in mind that Freightliner is owned by Genessee and Wyoming, and that remote controlled operation of mid-train and rear-end Distributed Power locomotives is well established and commonplace in the USA, I wonder if they're making any moves to get that trialled here?

Obviously our signalling and track layouts preclude the two- to three-mile long trains which run in the US, but the jumbo stone trains are possibly one of the few operations that might benefit from use of the technology here.

 

[The Ghoul]

The down reception (DR) line at Westbury seems to be being used as a run-round more now too. Trains off the Salisbury line, or even from Exeter, heading for Whatley or Merehead seem to be parked on the DR whilst the loco uncouples and runs round via one of the platform lines in the station. This obviously blocks the DR for some time, so through freights have to use the platforms. Might be a case for reinstating the other island platform fully - currently just one face is used (plat 1).

That's been common practice at Westbury for years, it probably has less impact now as a lot of services, such as 7C77, 6V18 ect now run via the avoider, because FL don't crew change there, like EWS/DB used too.

Of course, the benefit of using Westbury yard is that it is properly segregated away from the main passenger lines and does not require the provision of a shunter (person) in order to clear the main running lines. Using the cement works means impinging on the B&H (in both directions when exiting) at Heywood Road Jcn which potentially delays through traffic.

What is the situation at Acton Yard out of interest, is that DB-owned too?

7C77 starts at Wembley instead of Acton.

 

[D6975]

Here you go, taken a couple of weeks ago.