Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[robertclark125]

The way I saw the press release, it was for expressions of interest. That doesn't have to be a buyer, but someone interested in the business, wanting to look at the company and apply due diligence.

 

[TheManWho]

No link as yet, is a MMTM for the moment.
However as he has been in the industry for many years and is citing several contacts, including drivers at Whippet and senior staff at surrounding operators, I'm slightly inclined to believe him.

News of this also appearing on the LEYTR twitter feed

 

[LateThanNever]

[cynic]And of course, if it is GoAhead, they may simply be interested in looking at the books to see which routes if any are worth registering commercially, and how much to bid when/if CCC re-tender the tendered routes that WG has![/cynic]

Sorry to be negative but I am not convinced just yet there is a saviour waiting in the wings.

Doubt very much whether they'd be able to obtain that sort of route information by just looking at the books. WG has still got a lot of a turnover so I'm sure there is very likely to be a buyer even if - in fact particularly if - it's a fire sale price (to coin a phrase). I agree it is most likely to be someone who can strip out as many of the overheads as possible and just add on the basic business - which does seem to point to Plymouth CityBus. They'll need to invest a bit in new vehicles but they are big enough and rich enough to cascade from elsewhere and reinvest in new vehicles in current operations, where their present revenue is more clear cut. Or I suppose they could make a publicity splash by investing in the only brand new buses in Cornwall for decades!

 

[richw]

a publicity splash by investing in the only brand new buses in Cornwall for decades!

This is a rather ill advised comment.

Cornwall surprisingly has had a number of new buses even in the last decade!
First have had a number of 05 and 56 plate Darts. The 55 plate Tridents around Devon were new for Falmouth to Newquay services.
Western Greyhound had brand new Solos in 2009 and 2011, and brand new Enviro E400s in 2008.
Truronian had a number of brand new buses in 2006.

 

[robertclark125]

Although I'm saying the firm is still trading, I just wonder if there's been a chance that bids have been received for only parts of the operations, such as one firm buying one depot, and another buying another depot, rather than the whole business per se.

 

[winston270twm]

As already mentioned, one group has registered interest in Western Greyhound. Can't imagine it being an outsider, so my money is on Go-Ahead, but expect at the same time for big cutbacks if they end up taking over, with HQ based at Milehouse in Plymouth and operations cut right back to North and East Cornwall, with Central and West Cornwall left to First

Rotala Plc are also on the lookout for acquisitions. They've recently agreed revised banking facilities with up to £10 Million headroom for acquisitions.

They have plenty of MPD's & Solo's that could be cascaded from Diamond to somewhere like WG
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The way I saw the press release, it was for expressions of interest. That doesn't have to be a buyer, but someone interested in the business, wanting to look at the company and apply due diligence.

That is exactly how it reads to me as well, register their interest only, not make an offer by the deadline.

 

[Busaholic]

As already mentioned, one group has registered interest in Western Greyhound. Can't imagine it being an outsider, so my money is on Go-Ahead, but expect at the same time for big cutbacks if they end up taking over, with HQ based at Milehouse in Plymouth and operations cut right back to North and East Cornwall, with Central and West Cornwall left to First

Seems like years ago, but WG vacated West Cornwall last November, with the sole exception of one (theoretical) summer-only journey on the 547.

 

[LateThanNever]

This is a rather ill advised comment.

Cornwall surprisingly has had a number of new buses even in the last decade!
First have had a number of 05 and 56 plate Darts. The 55 plate Tridents around Devon were new for Falmouth to Newquay services.
Western Greyhound had brand new Solos in 2009 and 2011, and brand new Enviro E400s in 2008.
Truronian had a number of brand new buses in 2006.

Oh alright! But certainly brand new buses in Cornwall are very far from regular, as your statistics prove... Perhaps we should settle for first new buses for years!? We can but hope!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Oh alright! But certainly brand new buses in Cornwall are very far from regular, as your statistics prove... Perhaps we should settle for first new buses for years!? We can but hope!

Being brutally honest, Cornwall has always struggled for new buses. It is a sparsely populated county with challenging topography. That doesn't change irrespective of the operator.

Even in NBC days (when the cost of new vehicles was half covered by new bus grant), it still relied on cascades from other fleets with Leyland Nationals (ex Midland Red) to replace REs and Atlanteans (ex M&D and Trent), Fleetlines (ex London Transport) and VRs (ex COMS) to replace various Lodekkas.

New buses require profits, and Cornwall is not a very profitable place. That said, First lost sight of what was needed in such an area. That's taken some turning around and new vehicle investment has suffered accordingly against the regular if modest investment in the 1990s and early 2000s. However, it has never been (and doubtless never will be) a particularly lucrative area.

 

[RPI]

Being brutally honest, Cornwall has always struggled for new buses. It is a sparsely populated county with challenging topography. That doesn't change irrespective of the operator.

Even in NBC days (when the cost of new vehicles was half covered by new bus grant), it still relied on cascades from other fleets with Leyland Nationals (ex Midland Red) to replace REs and Atlanteans (ex M&D and Trent), Fleetlines (ex London Transport) and VRs (ex COMS) to replace various Lodekkas.

New buses require profits, and Cornwall is not a very profitable place. That said, First lost sight of what was needed in such an area. That's taken some turning around and new vehicle investment has suffered accordingly against the regular if modest investment in the 1990s and early 2000s. However, it has never been (and doubtless never will be) a particularly lucrative area.

You hit the nail on the head, the only reason for the modest growth is the fact that First have no real competition down there after buying out Truronian

 

[LateThanNever]

Being brutally honest, Cornwall has always struggled for new buses. It is a sparsely populated county with challenging topography. That doesn't change irrespective of the operator.

Even in NBC days (when the cost of new vehicles was half covered by new bus grant), it still relied on cascades from other fleets with Leyland Nationals (ex Midland Red) to replace REs and Atlanteans (ex M&D and Trent), Fleetlines (ex London Transport) and VRs (ex COMS) to replace various Lodekkas.

New buses require profits, and Cornwall is not a very profitable place. That said, First lost sight of what was needed in such an area. That's taken some turning around and new vehicle investment has suffered accordingly against the regular if modest investment in the 1990s and early 2000s. However, it has never been (and doubtless never will be) a particularly lucrative area.

Sure that's true. The irony is that, before the fire, WG made a jolly good job of it - in spite of/?because of the challenges!

 

[richw]

Oh alright! But certainly brand new buses in Cornwall are very far from regular, as your statistics prove... Perhaps we should settle for first new buses for years!? We can but hope!

I don't want new buses. I quite like Olympians and our mix and match fleets. Makes it more interesting from an enthusiast point of view. I have Flickr contacts who come to Cornwall just for our variety of fleet.

 

[LateThanNever]

I don't want new buses. I quite like Olympians and our mix and match fleets. Makes it more interesting from an enthusiast point of view. I have Flickr contacts who come to Cornwall just for our variety of fleet.

And there's me thinking "not another thin, threadbare seat" when I'm obliged to get a Cornish bus!
I'm interested, but only if it gets me on time from A-B!

 

[robertclark125]

I've always wondered if a Stagecoach Express style network, in the 1990's, run by Western National, could've been successful. That said, WG never tried such a thing either.

I'm not sure, but would I be right in saying that First is now the largest operator in Cornwall, ahead of Western Greyhound?

 

[daikilo]

When I witnessed and travelled on WN routes into and out of Mevagissey in the 1960s I cannot remember any bus being late or cancelled. I can remember duplicates and occasionally short triplicates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always wondered if a Stagecoach Express style network, in the 1990's, run by Western National, could've been successful. That said, WG never tried such a thing either.

I've long wondered why those seem so successful in Scotland yet other than a few examples like the X5 (itself phenomenally successful) you don't get a lot of them in England.

As for Wales, not making Trawscymru that kind of service to supplement the sparse rail network, perhaps even with a national ticketing scheme, is a real disappointment.

Neil

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've always wondered if a Stagecoach Express style network, in the 1990's, run by Western National, could've been successful. That said, WG never tried such a thing either.

I'm not sure, but would I be right in saying that First is now the largest operator in Cornwall, ahead of Western Greyhound?

There have been limited express services (Truro to Penzance) but two things limited things. The major objective would've been Plymouth but NatEx actually covered that and, in fact, WN day tickets were valid for a time with a surcharge IIRC. WN were also the main contractor for NX at the time.

Also, there's a natural topographical split (Bodmin Moor) and the train is much quicker although Plymouth station is out on a limb. Worth noting that Stagecoach Devon didn't develop much of an express network; X38/X46 were there in DG days.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think that express coaches could have competed on time with the train at any time in the past, but with the A30 now pretty much dual carriageway all the way from Exeter to Penzance they probably can. But I think there's really only First with the capacity to try and operate a coach network, and they're not going to do that whilst they have the rail franchise.

 

[Robertj21a]

Is it just me forgetting, or have First got a glowing record of operating any coaches successfully - anywhere in the UK ?

Presumably that rather strange 'Greyhound' still exists between Cardiff-Swansea (that most people probably still call N & C, or Brown Bombers) - anything else of note ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is it just me forgetting, or have First got a glowing record of operating any coaches successfully - anywhere in the UK ?

Presumably that rather strange 'Greyhound' still exists between Cardiff-Swansea (that most people probably still call N & C, or Brown Bombers) - anything else of note ?

No but Stagecoach don't now except their two X5s? Even TrawsCambria is operated by buses albeit with high back seats

 

[overthewater]

No but Stagecoach don't now except their two X5s? Even TrawsCambria is operated by buses albeit with high back seats

What about the Scottish Coach network? It keeps on growing, with brand new coaches. Ie Fife express, Ayrshire Express, X7: Perth - Aberdeen.. etc

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What about the Scottish Coach network? It keeps on growing, with brand new coaches. Ie Fife express, Ayrshire Express, X7: Perth - Aberdeen.. etc

Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was more a response to Neil William's post (23:05) that referred to "outside Scotland".

In England and Wales, Stagecoach have their Cumbrian X5. In the Midlands, they have their Varsity X5 but most other limited stops (e.g. X4, X7, X46, X47, X15, X17 etc etc) are operated by buses (usually e300/e400) for example

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was more a response to Neil William's post (23:05) that referred to "outside Scotland".

In England and Wales, Stagecoach have their Cumbrian X5. In the Midlands, they have their Varsity X5 but most other limited stops (e.g. X4, X7, X46, X47, X15, X17 etc etc) are operated by buses (usually e300/e400) for example

And those X-services aren't all the same concept - the X4/X7 are more bus routes than coach routes in their character.

I know there's the Lakeland X5, but I'd see potential in more tourist area routes upping the quality in that manner, as well as plugging the gaps in the Welsh rail network.

Neil

 

[freetoview33]

Is it just me forgetting, or have First got a glowing record of operating any coaches successfully - anywhere in the UK ?

Presumably that rather strange 'Greyhound' still exists between Cardiff-Swansea (that most people probably still call N & C, or Brown Bombers) - anything else of note ?

Well it operates between Swansea - Cardiff - Bristol Airport

 

[W-on-Sea]

Is it just me forgetting, or have First got a glowing record of operating any coaches successfully - anywhere in the UK ?

Presumably that rather strange 'Greyhound' still exists between Cardiff-Swansea (that most people probably still call N & C, or Brown Bombers) - anything else of note ?

At a stretch, what little remains of the Green Line network between London and Berkshire - although these days the coaches are mostly (or all?) just coach-seated double deck buses.

The X30 from Stansted Airport to Southend (and now also Southend Airport) has been around for a few years - maybe not a glowing success, but not a disaster at least.

Possibly the short answer to your question is thus "no, not really...."

 

[richw]

I don't think that express coaches could have competed on time with the train at any time in the past, but with the A30 now pretty much dual carriageway all the way from Exeter to Penzance they probably can. But I think there's really only First with the capacity to try and operate a coach network, and they're not going to do that whilst they have the rail franchise.

I cant compare to Exeter, but from my house (1/4 mile from Redruth station) to Tiverton Parkway it is about an hour quicker by car than train.
A fast express bus may be favourable if it was picking up from junctions of A30 and not going into all of the towns if the price was right.

 

[mbonwick]

What about the large coach network Stagecoach have in Scotland? And Megabus?

 

[Robertj21a]

No but Stagecoach don't now except their two X5s? Even TrawsCambria is operated by buses albeit with high back seats

I always thought the Oxford Tube was a fairly significant success ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And those X-services aren't all the same concept - the X4/X7 are more bus routes than coach routes in their character.

Neil

That's the point! Despite their limited stop, cross country nature.
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I always thought the Oxford Tube was a fairly significant success ?

Oh yeah.... Did well to miss that
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What about the large coach network Stagecoach have in Scotland? And Megabus?

Scotland was specifically mentioned by Neil asking why is Stagecoach Express successful in Scotland yet not copied elsewhere. Megabus is a slightly different product but appreciate your point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the point! Despite their limited stop, cross country nature.

What I meant is that they mainly carry passengers more like a bus route (shorter distances) and they do stop rather more than the X5 does (except on its all-stops section towards Cambridge).

Anyway, I guess we're heading a bit off topic here...

Neil