What are your first impressions of the new TGV-M.

[sga962]

There isn't one really. I think it's mostly just a French thing because their high-speed trains are exclusively units at each end while Trenitalia, Italo, Renfe and Deutsche Bahn prefer multiple units these days. Some of their older models were power car sets but in the case of Renfe it was a TGV-derived set, and since then most modern modern high-speed trains are multiple unit. China and Japan meanwhile were always EMUs for their high speed networks as far as I'm aware.

If theres a traction problem you can just swap power cars rather than taking a whole set out of service. E.g. Eurostar power car 3999

 

[popeter45]

Definitely the case with diesel power since the engines of a multiple unit lead to underfloor vibrations that can make a carriage rather noisy and shaky. But with electric the difference is negligible, and all very high-speed trains like the TGV are thankfully electric. I dread to imagine the level of noise and vibration you would get of diesel motors accelerating to 300km/h if ever it were possible.

kind of close but TGV 001 was Gas turbine powered and reached 300km/h many times during tests

 

[Sorcerer]

kind of close but TGV 001 was Gas turbine powered and reached 300km/h many times during tests

I cannot believe that I remembered the TGV prototype being gas turbine powered but not that it reached 300km/h in testing. In either case any vibrations would still be preferable in the power cars than beneath the passenger saloon areas.

 

[Bayum]

As pointed out before: it’s a feature, the power cars are as short as possible to enable 9 intermediate cars instead of 8 on the current duplex - so to further increase capacity, since maximum train length is limited to +/- 400 meters.

Doesn’t matter whether it’s a feature - it looks blocky. End of.

 

[citycat]

The front reminds of when a car manufacturer is launching a new model and tests it in public with heavy disguising panels to mask what the finished car will look like.

You think Alsthom are doing the same and there is a sleak looking TGV underneath that front end. Unfortunately, this is the finished product.

As I said in the opening post, hopefully the livery will help to improve the look.

 

[Sorcerer]

As I said in the opening post, hopefully the livery will help to improve the look.

I think based on this CGI concept artwork it does enhance the train a little bit, though the black band curving upwards is a little bit jarring in my opinion.

 

[Austriantrain]

Doesn’t matter whether it’s a feature - it looks blocky. End of.

A matter of opinion. And even from your point of you - what does it matter?

I definitely wouldn't agree with that - if you look around you'll find quite a lot of visual variety in high-speed train aesthetics...

And I can’t agree with you, to me all modern trains look ever more similar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That livery makes it look reasonable by hiding the join between the power car and the first coach. It's the stubbiness that looks bad (which is why the Amtrak design looks terrible with the non-matching power car).

As for modern trains looking similar, they sort of do, but there's a distinct Alstom look which just seems a bit clumsy and plastic, and with a distinct (Dutch looking?) "Hondekop" - dog head - on most units. Definitely my least favourite.

 

[Austriantrain]

In the end, while good looks are not to be sneered upon, it is more important that new trains are reliable and transport lots of passengers, ideally earning lots of money

 

[gallafent]

I think it's mostly just a French thing because their high-speed trains are exclusively units at each end while Trenitalia, Italo, Renfe and Deutsche Bahn prefer multiple units these days.

For very high-speed, RENFE has lately only been buying Talgo sets with power cars and unmotored coaches.

Or is it because Talgo is a local manufacturer who only offer that sort of train? It's not unusual for European state-owned operators to select local manufacturers for the majority of rolling stock orders. France does it with Alstom, Germany with Siemens, Switzerland with Stadler, and of course Spain with CAF and Talgo.

I am sure there is truth in what you say; but I merely wanted to point out that the statement is this thread that only SNCF keeps ordering sets with power cars is incomplete, since RENFE does it too.

Your statement is true, but SNCF are still very much push-pull only with their TGV fleet whereas RENFE has a mixed fleet of push-pull and EMUs. For what it's worth I also think SNCF are making a conscious decision to stick with push-pull technology simply because it's what they know best, seeing as TGVs were originally planned to be powered with turbines before the oil crisis pushed them to electric but kept the design choice.

Relating to all of the above: https://www.talgo.com/-/deutsche-ba...-single-order-history-56-new-talgo-230-trains and https://www.talgo.com/-/talgo-icel-db-begin-testing-germany

DB have placed Talgo's largest ever single order for new trains ... not EMUs and not a local manufacturer, but push-pull (locomotive at one end, driving trailer at the other) and built in Spain

Quoting entire articles here would be excessively long (and presumably breach their copyright), fragments follow:

Berlin, May 17 2023

German federal railway company Deutsche Bahn today announced an ambitious plan to expand its ICE high-speed train fleet, which will result in the largest train supply contract for Talgo in its over 80-year history: 56 new units worth approximately 1,400 million euros. This new order is part of the framework contract signed in 2019 along with a first order for 23 trains. Both orders will take the Talgo-made ICE L fleet to reach 79 units.

The trains belong to the Talgo 230 technology platform and will be operated by Deutsche Bahn throughout Germany under the “ICE L” name, which designates long-distance, high-speed services that will also feature low-floor platform level in all their coaches (Intercity-Express Low-Floor) and will therefore be fully accessible, a unique capability of the Spanish company among the global rail industry.

[...]

Arrangement: 1 locomotive + 16 coaches + 1 cab car

Madrid, July 13, 2023

The first ICE L long-distance and high-speed train, manufactured by Talgo for Deutsche Bahn, has arrived this week in Germany, where certification tests will begin imminently with a view to its entry into service between Berlin and Amsterdam (Netherlands) at the end of 2024. This is the first of 79 units that Talgo will manufacture for the German operator, as part of a framework contract for 100 units and within the strict schedule agreed with the customer.

Manufactured entirely in Spain, this unit of 17 passenger carriages has been transported by rail track on a journey of some 2,000 kilometres in length and several days in duration, crossing France and a large part of Germany. The initial destination of this composition is the Zughotel (literally, "hotel for trains") in Braunschweig, Lower Saxony.

[...]

I've enjoyed travelling on Talgo trains in the past, I expect these to be very pleasant.

 

[bahnause]

Publicly owned companies cannot simply order vehicles. They must be put out to tender in accordance with the WTO. The award is made according to the criteria from the specifications.

 

[eldomtom2]

Of course that's a case where loco-hauled stock is being replaced with loco-hauled stock.

But certainly there are cultural differences between countries when it comes to the use of multiple units. You have Japan at one end, where locomotives have been totally banished from non-heritage passenger service, and at the other end you have countries like America where loco-hauled stock is still common in commuter operations.

 

[Austriantrain]

Of course that's a case where loco-hauled stock is being replaced with loco-hauled stock.

I consider it almost certain that the second series of ICE-L will largely replace the ICE-T, based on the maps of usage provided by DB.

 

[RichJF]

Looks like a TGV Duplex that has gone through the same surgeon as Madonna's latest plastic surgery!

 

[Snow1964]

Alstom has released more details of testing ahead of the 115 production TGV-M sets

TGV M tests accelerate on the French national railway network

Since June 2023, the future INOUI TGV (5th generation rolling stock, named TGV M) has been undergoing tests on the French national railway network.

www.alstom.com

Seems it has a digital twin at La Rochelle, presumably a wiring loom connected to the electrical and control parts on a building floor, now if Bombardier had done that to test Aventra software 7 years ago might be in different place.

 

[eldomtom2]

Meanwhile across the pond, the TGV-M's American counterpart is not doing well. The Avelia Liberty is suffering continuous delays to its introduction in to service, with a host of issues reported including spontaneous shattering of windows.

Amtrak’s inspector general says first of new $2 billion Acelas don’t meet federal standards

The first of the new trainsets were scheduled to go into service in May of 2021. Now, the new Acelas are projected to begin carrying passengers in the second half of 2024.

www.inquirer.com

Amtrak’s next-generation Acela program, already three years behind, risks further delays and higher costs because the manufacturer’s designs have not yet met federal safety standards and each nine-car train set it has produced has defects, according to a report from the Amtrak Office of Inspector General.

The performance audit, which spanned November 2022 through August 2023 and was released on Tuesday, offered detailed critiques of how Amtrak and its vendor, Alstom, have managed the $2 billion effort to replace the Acela express trains that have run on the Northeast Corridor since 2000.

To take their place, Amtrak ordered 28 Avelia Liberty high-speed train sets in 2016, and Alstom, a French multinational company, is building them in its Hornell, N.Y., factory.

The first of the new train sets were scheduled to go into service in May 2021, the report said. Now, the new Acelas are projected to begin carrying passengers in the second half of 2024, the report said — with the last train sets delivered about June 2025. There could be additional delays, the OIG report said.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened for @Snow1964 to provide an update

 

[Snow1964]

SNCF have unveiled first TGV-M in final livery.
Apparently all painted as it is more hard wearing the stick on plastic

The creation of the TGV M livery marks a departure from conventional practices. Unlike previous methods involving adhesive overlays, the entire livery is now painted, enhancing durability and significantly reducing workshop immobilizations for refurbishment operations over the train’s lifespan.

Moreover, the selected hues not only enhance the train’s aesthetic appeal but also increase its reflectivity, thereby reducing energy consumption during summer and high-temperature conditions. Environmental sustainability remains a cornerstone for SNCF Voyageurs, aligning with their commitment to operate trains as the most carbon-efficient mode of transport.

SNCF unveils future TGV INOUI livery at Alstom factory

SNCF Voyageurs showcased the livery of the forthcoming TGV INOUÏ (dubbed TGV M) on 29 April 2024, at Alstom’s Belfort factories. This unveiling marks the final industrial phase before the anticipated debut of the train on the Southeast axis in the latter half of 2025. The upcoming TGV INOUI...

www.railtech.com

 

[eastwestdivide]

From the article

The new livery of the TGV INOUI epitomises the comfort and elegance of the TGV experience with its predominantly light palette of overlapping round shapes in shades of grey and white. Reflecting the identity of the TGV INOUI brand, the design exudes simplicity and fluidity, evoking a sense of tranquillity and luminosity.

The accent of “Frenchberry” red is strategically placed on the boarding doors, inviting passengers to explore the interior spaces. Even before boarding, the livery promises a blend of serenity and high-speed mobility, where technological advancements prioritise passenger comfort and safety

or put simply, “mostly white with red doors”

 

[popeter45]

From the article

or put simply, “mostly white with red doors”

i assume thats to meet PRM requirements

 

[Pugwash]

My first impression is these would be excellent for a competitor to Eurostar to take a lot of Passengers to Paris with 16/18 double deck Coaches per trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

or put simply, “mostly white with red doors”

You reckon they're envious of the 2-car Class 197?

(It is a bit basic and minimalist, though, not sure I like it - it'd benefit from a window band, but that'd basically make it the same as SBB's colour scheme near enough)

 

[507021]

I like the look of the units, but I think the livery is very bland.

 

[HarryF]

I think the TGV-M design looks fabulous, always found the Duplex to be ugly in my opinion. However, I think the livery needs black window bands (as said above) or something else to make it look complete. In my opinion it looks unfinished, and I think the artists impression which resembled the current TGV livery was way better.

 

[Snow1964]

I guess compared to orange of first generation TGV, then variations of silver, blue and grey, does seem rather bland.

But I will reserve final judgement until interiors are revealed. The design is supposed to give more space per passenger, even though there could be 720 seats in a 200m unit.

Seems a small number will be built this year and next, gradually ramping up to one a month in 2-3 years time. So will be few years before all 115 units on order are delivered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the TGV-M design looks fabulous

You reckon? I think the power car looks stubby and ugly. Distributed traction is the way to go now, in any case, electric locomotives are very much an out of date concept. (Diesel not because you have the noise issue, hence the Stadler GTW* which had a power module for diesel or electric evolving to the FLIRT which only has one for diesel, with the electric gubbins built in and distributed).

* Gelenktriebwagen, i.e. articulated multiple unit - before they came up with the silly names

 

[43096]

You reckon? I think the power car looks stubby and ugly. Distributed traction is the way to go now, in any case, electric locomotives are very much an out of date concept.

Is that why DSB, DB, ČD and others have taken delivery of or have on order electric locomotives for passenger work and why Siemens have developed a 230km/h Vectron?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that why DSB, DB, ČD and others have taken delivery of or have on order electric locomotives for passenger work and why Siemens have developed a 230km/h Vectron?

To be fair the European railway has a very dated approach to rolling stock in a lot of cases. The Railjet sets for example are nice, but there's really very little case not to have built fixed-formation sets like those (they're similar to the ex-TPE Mk5s) as electric multiple units. The Southern worked that out years ago and were basically right, and even traditional loco-operated railways like SBB are very much moving to EMUs.

DMUs vs diesel locos/power cars are different because of the noise issue, of course.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I just wish that SNCF would stop employing 20-somethings with marketing degrees to come up with these stupid and poorly tested subbrands (especially with non-francophonic customers). Inoui and Ouigo still seem very shallow and faddish compared to "TGV" - the acronym famous the world over for highspeed French trains.

 

[43096]

The Railjet sets for example are nice, but there's really very little case not to have built fixed-formation sets like those (they're similar to the ex-TPE Mk5s) as electric multiple units.

Actually there was a very strong case for building them as they are: ÖBB had a fleet of recently built 230km/h locos to haul them.

The Southern worked that out years ago and were basically right, and even traditional loco-operated railways like SBB are very much moving to EMUs.

Not sure why you have the loco hang up as the RailJets are fixed formation trains that you can easily couple together.

Going back to TGV-M and the use of power cars I suspect Alstom and SNCF know more about the design decisions than you do. Perhaps they have concluded that the loss of space from distributed traction would mean loss of capacity which would mean additional vehicles are required; so they have concluded it is better to concentrate all the power equipment at each end of the train.