What can you do if somebody sits on your booked seat ?

[Willie Bee]

I saw an article on my phone this morning, about a couple on holiday to the UK.

They had booked seats on an Edinburgh to Kings Cross LNER train, but when they boarded, somebody was in one of their seats.

They politely asked the woman to move but she refused and it seems LNER didn't help

What are the rules regarding seats .. surely if somebody has taken the time to book a ticket and pick seats, then they should be able to sit there.

I was on a Newcastle to Durham train a few weeks ago and somebody was in my allocated seat. It was only a journey of about 10 minutes so I wasn't too bothered (table / window seat which I like)

Click here to see the story, from Edinburghlive.co.uk

A couple who were on their holiday in Edinburgh from America have shared a video of their ordeal that involved a woman refusing to get out of the seat they had paid for on an LNER service.

When the couple politely asked the woman to move, they were told that they should give up their seat because they are “younger” and “fitter” than she is...

 

[Merseysider]

Given the woman's very poor attitude reported in that article, I'd be tempted to start moving her things for her...

 

[mrcheek]

This happens often. and also often ends up in the media, or on social media.

But a bigger problem is when people book seats and dont use them, often leaving seats vacant for an entire journey on busy trains.
Newspapers never seem to pick up on that once

 

[Vespa]

The BTP should be on hand to enforce it if the guards can't do it, the message needs to go that seat reservation is enforceable otherwise offer a free first class seat upgrade to those put out by it.

 

[AlterEgo]

The video in the Phil Space article doesn't seem to have any sound - or is it just me?

 

[Bluejays]

This happens often. and also often ends up in the media, or on social media.

But a bigger problem is when people book seats and dont use them, often leaving seats vacant for an entire journey on busy trains.
Newspapers never seem to pick up on that once

I don't normally get territorial about my space on trains but had this issue a few weeks back. Had been sat nice and relaxed for 90 odd minutes, watching the rugby on the tablet. Bloke gets on, walks past about 5 or 6 empty rows of 2 seats (they were all showing red as all had been reserved from the first couple of stops but not been sat in) and proceeds to plonk himself right next to me.

After about 5 minutes I moved myself to one of the empty rows. After I'd moved , his missus then went to join him. So they'd both been sitting next to people when they could have chosen half the carriage(including 2 free tables) to sit in together.

I'd always thought the 'reserved from and to' screens were quite intuitive but I'm guessing not, I think a lot of people just see the red and won't go anywhere near it.


*What this did do though is remind me that on the trains I work we can delete reservations. So if the train is getting busy and there are unclaimed reserved seats I now make sure I'm proactive in clearing them back to green. Quite often a seat that's sat empty for an hour gets claimed inside minutes when it's back to green.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The BTP should be on hand to enforce it if the guards can't do it, the message needs to go that seat reservation is enforceable otherwise offer a free first class seat upgrade to those put out by it.

Just no, god no!

As conductors all we can do (this is what we are instructed by our company) is to ask if they will move, if they won’t then, that’s it, nothing more we can do, we can’t force them or remove them from the train.
The BTP sure don’t have the time or resources to do it. And I certainly don’t think train crew or BTP *WANT* to do it either !

My TOC no longer uses seat reservations and it’s one of the best things they’ve done and I hope it never comes back.

In my opinion most train services don’t really suit seat reservations as it’s not like an airline where the train is going to 1 destination.

I believe Lumo do it where you can only ride the service if you have a reservation. Which is great. I can get behind that as there would be no one without a seat res and should never be overbooked.
Either do it 100% or not at all.

And as has already been mentioned people just get on and think “oh that seats nicer, so I’ll sit there instead” and then they’re reserved seat goes unoccupied for a lot of the journey for no reason.
AWAY WITH RESERVATIONS

 

[bleeder4]

I don't normally get territorial about my space on trains but had this issue a few weeks back. Had been sat nice and relaxed for 90 odd minutes, watching the rugby on the tablet. Bloke gets on, walks past about 5 or 6 empty rows of 2 seats (they were all showing red as all had been reserved from the first couple of stops but not been sat in) and proceeds to plonk himself right next to me.

After about 5 minutes I moved myself to one of the empty rows. After I'd moved , his missus then went to join him. So they'd both been sitting next to people when they could have chosen half the carriage(including 2 free tables) to sit in together.

I'd always thought the 'reserved from and to' screens were quite intuitive but I'm guessing not, I think a lot of people just see the red and won't go anywhere near it.

I would have taken the time to explain it to them, they might have been grateful to you.. Unless someone tells them that's the way the screens work then they're never going to know and will just keep doing the same every single journey.

 

[billh]

A slightly different situation for me happened last year. Boarding a very crowded Cross Country train at New Street, struggled to get to reserved seat which was occupied, I was about to ask them to move but noticed the indicator above "Available" ! Had to stand for about half an hour till someone else got off , different seat. There were other reserved and occupied seats, just somehow XC had lost my reservation. Yes , I was in the right coach.

 

[Lurcheroo]

otherwise offer a free first class seat upgrade to those put out by it.

Absolutely not. You’ve not paid extra to book the seat.

 

[gg1]

But a bigger problem is when people book seats and dont use them, often leaving seats vacant for an entire journey on busy trains.
Newspapers never seem to pick up on that once

IME those only remain vacant past the starting station of the booking if there are other seats available.

 

[Bluejays]

I would have taken the time to explain it to them, they might have been grateful to you.. Unless someone tells them that's the way the screens work then they're never going to know and will just keep doing the same every single journey.

I've always found that there can be a fine line between patronising and explaining, especially with complete strangers. I think I'm one of those people who tend to sound patronising Aswell as the fact that many people get stressed by train travel and are anxious not to break the rules(what they perceive the rules to be). Easier to just say 'excuse me mate ' and toddle off to the spare seat opposite.

 

[Lurcheroo]

what they perceive the rules to be)

I generally find most of those who kick off about seat reservations to the guard also have a fairly skewed idea of what the rules actually are.

 

[Bluejays]

I generally find most of those who kick off about seat reservations to the guard also have a fairly skewed idea of what the rules actually are.

Amen to that.

 

[Vespa]

Absolutely not. You’ve not paid extra to book the seat.

So what's the option if you're not prepared to remove an unauthorised person from their seat and you have one customer in a presumably crowded train with no option, what's the point of reservations if it's not enforced.

Essentially reinforcing anti social behavior

*Things like that drives people away from trains into cars

 

[voyagerdude220]

So what's the option if you're not prepared to remove an unauthorised person from their seat and you have one customer in a presumably crowded train with no option, what's the point of reservations if it's not enforced.

Essentially reinforcing anti social behavior

*Things like that drives people away from trains into cars

I agree with you. That's despite the fact when I used to travel on trains much more frequently before Covid, I'd usually pay for First Class where available. I wouldn't have any objections to the train crew allowing someone in First Class because another person had refused them access to their pre booked seat.

There wouldn't be any point in reserving or having the option to reserve a seat because it would effectively become first come first served (or more precisely seated.)

 

[norbitonflyer]

I believe Lumo do it where you can only ride the service if you have a reservation. Which is great. I can get behind that as there would be no one without a seat res and should never be overbooked.
Either do it 100% or not at all.

Not so - if you go on the National Rail website and try to buy an off peak single from London to Edinburgh, and check the list of services such a ticket is valid on, it includes Lumo's as well as LNER's. What they did say, on the Lumo service I travelled on in August, was that the service was fully booked, so anyone with a open ticket would not have a seat. (This was not quite true - the seats opposite ours were not occupied until Newcastle, and there were doubtless some no-shows)

 

[Lurcheroo]

They’re by no means an unauthorised person (and to call them that heavily reinforces the idea that those who complain about seat reservations don’t actually understand the system) the contract (the ticket) states that the operator will get you from A-B. Nothing else. Even a seat reservation doesn’t guarantee you a seat.

As I said, get rid of them unless you’re going to make it like airlines where you can only Board if you have a ticket and reservation for that service.

If you think that is anti social behaviour then boy have I got news for you

 

[devon_belle]

Seat reservation system is becoming redundant anyway, as half the time these 'reservations' were made when buying an off-peak return (or similar) and the reservee doesn't travel on the train.

While they are still free I certainly wouldn't propose getting the BTP involved. After all, there's a wide range of reasons for someone sitting in another person's reserved seat. Of course, people who simply don't care account for a fair portion of these instances.

In my view, it would be better to direct anger at train operators for providing too few seats (and too many reserved ones).

 

[norbitonflyer]

The BTP should be on hand to enforce it if the guards can't do it, the message needs to go that seat reservation is enforceable

They do not have a ticket valid for a journey in that seat - it should be the same rules as if you are on a train that the ticket is not valid on. If they refuse to leave, excess them the full price of a journey in that seat. Then if they refuse to pay or give details, BTP can be alerted.

 

[Lurcheroo]

it would effectively become first come first served (or more precisely seated.)

In honesty, part of the issue is lack of capacity on many services. If this was improved then people would care a lot less and would probably not book seats so they can just sit where ever suits when they board the train.

Not so - if you go on the National Rail website and try to buy an off peak single from London to Edinburgh, and check the list of services such a ticket is valid on, it includes Lumo's as well as LNER's. What they did say, on the Lumo service I travelled on in August, was that the service was fully booked, so anyone with a open ticket would not have a seat. (This was not quite true - the seats opposite ours were not occupied until Newcastle, and there were doubtless some no-shows)

Ahh thank you for the info, never travelled with them (not my neck of the woods).

They do not have a ticket valid for a journey in that seat - it should be the same rules as if you are on a train that the ticket is not valid on. If they refuse to leave, excess them the full price of a journey in that seat. Then if they refuse to pay or give details, BTP can be alerted.

That is an absolutely horrid idea.

 

[devon_belle]

Compulsory reservations would only serve to put more people off travelling by train.

Better to remove the reservation system for most trains and expand the priority/accessible seat provisions for people who genuinely need to be guaranteed a seat.

If this puts people off travelling because they no longer get a piece of paper entitling them to a seat, companies will notice the drop and will have to provide more seats to attract passengers back.

 

[1D54]

But a bigger problem is when people book seats and dont use them, often leaving seats vacant for an entire journey on busy trains.

Guilty on that one time and time again. I like a window seat facing and tbh i can't remember the last time i boarded a train and headed to my reserved seat. Not sure if I'm being selfish but surely when someone sees the vacant seat after the booked departure point they will know that it is fine to sit there.

 

[Lurcheroo]

They do not have a ticket valid for a journey in that seat - it should be the same rules as if you are on a train that the ticket is not valid on. If they refuse to leave, excess them the full price of a journey in that seat. Then if they refuse to pay or give details, BTP can be alerted.

What I normally see is people with an advanced ticket who paid the bare minimum for the journey, comping about an individual In ‘their’ seat who has an off peak return and paid about 9 times the price, so who should really have the seat

Guilty on that one time and time again. I like a window seat facing and tbh i can't remember the last time i boarded a train and headed to my reserved seat. Not sure if I'm being selfish but surely when someone sees the vacant seat after the booked departure point they will know that it is fine to sit there.

That’s totally fair, and I understand why people do it. But just reinforces that TOC’s May as well do away with seat reservations and save everyone the hassle.

It appears from this thread that people on the whole won’t do that.

If this puts people off travelling because they no longer get a piece of paper entitling them to a seat, companies will notice the drop and will have to provide more seats to attract passengers back.

If people felt confident they would get a seat they wouldn’t care about reservations.

 

[BAFRA77]

What I normally see is people with an advanced ticket who paid the bare minimum for the journey, comping about an individual In ‘their’ seat who has an off peak return and paid about 9 times the price, so who should really have the seat

Easy - the ticket holder with the reservation for that seat.

 

[devon_belle]

If people felt confident they would get a seat they wouldn’t care about reservations.

Thats my point: if the converse is true then companies will need to provide more seats or lose customers to road. People in need of seats should have a better system in place to guarantee them.

 

[DarloRich]

What can you do?

Ask them to move nicely > Firmly insist they move > (Optional: instruct them to move using industrial language)> Seek the guard.

 

[devon_belle]

Optional: instruct them to move using industrial language

Do we really want rail passengers taking the 'law' into their own hands?

 

[DarloRich]

Do we really want rail passengers taking the 'law' into their own hands?

not at all - I am simply saying that you might want to press the point using less than friendly language especially if your initial polite response has been met with similar language. ( as has happened to me - that kind of things tend to rile me up a touch)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do not have a ticket valid for a journey in that seat - it should be the same rules as if you are on a train that the ticket is not valid on. If they refuse to leave, excess them the full price of a journey in that seat. Then if they refuse to pay or give details, BTP can be alerted.

I've long taken the view that it should be possible to charge a base Penalty Fare for any minor antisocial behaviour, stuff like feet on seats, smoking, littering and the likes. Notably Merseyrail openly supports this. I would be more than supportive of this applying for failure to move from a reserved seat where it is marked (if not marked it should not apply, and clear signage should explain this) when requested to do so.

If staff aren't prepared to enforce reservations (and I absolutely love the passive aggressive option of upgrading the reserver for free in the face of the muppet who sat there) then they should be abolished. Their value is based entirely on them being respected and enforced.