What could happen for not giving Revenue Officer my details

[anon56789]

got in a dispute with a revenue officer. I was split faring. He said I didn’t have a valid ticket as I had bought the second part of the journey on my phone as my final destination had changed.

He asked for my ID numerous times but I honestly didn’t have it. He then said he wanted to go through my phone to prove who I was, which is obviously illegal without a warrant. He then said give me your details (still hasn’t told me what I’ve done wrong) and i refused as it had got heated at this point.

He told me he had my details anyway via scanning the QR code so I said “there you go then” and went on my way. He then said “see you in court”.

How much trouble am I in? Will he find my address via the QR code?

 

[methecooldude]

got in a dispute with a revenue officer. I was split faring. He said I didn’t have a valid ticket as I had bought the second part of the journey on my phone as my final destination had changed.

He asked for my ID numerous times but I honestly didn’t have it. He then said he wanted to go through my phone to prove who I was, which is obviously illegal without a warrant. He then said give me your details (still hasn’t told me what I’ve done wrong) and i refused as it had got heated at this point.

He told me he had my details anyway via scanning the QR code so I said “there you go then” and went on my way. He then said “see you in court”.

How much trouble am I in? Will he find my address via the QR code?

Not giving your valid name and address when asked is an offence under the railway bylaws.

That being said, there is no requirement to show ID (although it makes life easier as its quicker to validate).

In relation to the QR code, yes, the TOC can request purchaser information from the ticket retailer, if anything comes of it, you'll have to wait and see

 

[6Gman]

When you say "He asked for my ID numerous times but I honestly didn't have it" do you mean:

A. He asked for your name and address which you declined to supply, or
B. You gave your name and address which he asked you to confirm but you had no means to confirm, or
C. He never asked for your name or address but insisted you supply some documentary evidence?

 

[Fermiboson]

The requirement only applies when the passenger is under reasonable suspicion of violating the byelaws. Is OP? The description is not specific enough to tell.

 

[anon56789]

When you say "He asked for my ID numerous times but I honestly didn't have it" do you mean:

A. He asked for your name and address which you declined to supply, or
B. You gave your name and address which he asked you to confirm but you had no means to confirm, or
C. He never asked for your name or address but insisted you supply some documentary evidence?

He asked for physical ID, then to show him who I was by going through my phone, then asked for my postcode which I refused as it was strange behaviour

Not giving your valid name and address when asked is an offence under the railway bylaws.

That being said, there is no requirement to show ID (although it makes life easier as its quicker to validate).

In relation to the QR code, yes, the TOC can request purchaser information from the ticket retailer, if anything comes of it, you'll have to wait and see

Understand now I should of given my details but to ask to see my physical ID and to go through my phone to validate who I am is weird no?

 

[sansyy]

got in a dispute with a revenue officer. I was split faring. He said I didn’t have a valid ticket as I had bought the second part of the journey on my phone as my final destination had changed.

He asked for my ID numerous times but I honestly didn’t have it. He then said he wanted to go through my phone to prove who I was, which is obviously illegal without a warrant. He then said give me your details (still hasn’t told me what I’ve done wrong) and i refused as it had got heated at this point.

He told me he had my details anyway via scanning the QR code so I said “there you go then” and went on my way. He then said “see you in court”.

How much trouble am I in? Will he find my address via the QR code?

Had you had a valid ticket up to the point you were on the train? I don't see a reason to be accused if you changed your destination? Did you purchase the second ticket starting from the destination of your last ticket?

 

[anon56789]

Had you had a valid ticket up to the point you were on the train? I don't see a reason to be accused if you changed your destination? Did you purchase the second ticket starting from the destination of your last ticket?

I actually bought it from the original departure point, rather than the end of my first fare destination.

 

[sansyy]

I actually bought it from the original departure point, rather than the end of my first fare destination.

Did you show both tickets and explained why you did that? Since you had a valid ticket the first one wouldn't flag.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Did you purchase the second ticket before you reached the point at which your first ticket was no longer valid. You need to be much clearer as to what happened and why if we are to help you.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I was split faring.

Can you tell us what your exact journey was, what tickets you held and when you purchased the disputed ticket.
Which train company are you dealing with?

He asked for my ID numerous times

You are required to give your name and address to an authorised person when asked to do so but there is no requirement to show ID.
You commit a crimonal offence if you don't give your name and address.

He then said he wanted to go through my phone to prove who I was

A member of staff has no right to do this.

How much trouble am I in? Will he find my address via the QR code?

The train company can obtain your account details from the ticket QR code (it's actually called an Aztec code, before and pedants correct me!)

I expect the train company will write to you saying that they have received a report, that they have sufficient evidence to prosecute you but asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is extremely important that you reply to the letter. If you do receive a letter then post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you purchase the second ticket before you reached the point at which your first ticket was no longer valid. You need to be much clearer as to what happened and why if we are to help you.

It would also make sense for the OP to upload pictures of the actual tickets held and details of when each was purchased (with the ID/barcode redacted).

 

[methecooldude]

He asked for physical ID, then to show him who I was by going through my phone, then asked for my postcode which I refused as it was strange behaviour


Understand now I should of given my details but to ask to see my physical ID and to go through my phone to validate who I am is weird no?

They shouldn't have requested to go though your phone, however asking for ID is routine to validate that the person they are speaking to is giving correct information.

 

[WesternLancer]

Keep copies of your tickets for at least 6 months and make sure you can locate them if needed.

 

[furlong]

To comment properly, we need to know the exact details of the journey and tickets.
The requirement to provide name and address (and sometimes date of birth) depends very much on the exact circumstances, and normal advice is to provide it but under protest if you don't think you are required to. That way, you can be sure you've not broken the law if you were wrong and the law said you did have to provide it, and on the other hand if you're right, you can complain (and potentially obtain compensation). You should always be given, without prompting, an explanation of the reason in law why they believe you are required to tell them and you can ask to see their identification (which often they'll already have shown you or have visibly on display) as proof they are entitled to ask you.

 

[skyhigh]

Is this the same case?

Bought ticket on the train

Hello, I was travelling back from London Marlyebone and the train was about to leave and the gate guy let me through as I needed to get home before my daughter went to bed. I got on the train and got bought a single ticket on the Trainline app as a guest. Revenue officer comes over and checks...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[furlong]

Is this the same case?

Bought ticket on the train

Hello, I was travelling back from London Marlyebone and the train was about to leave and the gate guy let me through as I needed to get home before my daughter went to bed. I got on the train and got bought a single ticket on the Trainline app as a guest. Revenue officer comes over and checks...

www.railforums.co.uk

The details there are a bit different, but the OP does travel twice a week, so it's easy to imagine another problem happening, isn't it, where this time their required destination changed while they were on the train?
(It's also easy to imagine the OP soon being honoured with a personal reception at one end of their journey!)

 

[skyhigh]

The details there are a bit different, but the OP does travel twice a week, so it's easy to imagine another problem happening, isn't it, where this time their required destination changed while they were on the train?
(It's also easy to imagine the OP soon being honoured with a personal reception at one end of their journey!)

Either we're discussing the same thing twice with different details (which is helpful to nobody) or the OP has been stopped twice in a week for a ticketing irregularly and both times refused to give details.

If it's a second report, it points towards habitual fare evasion. And to be honest, a lot of the details in the first thread didn't sound right - Marylebone barrier line don't usually let people through without tickets to 'read a bedtime story'. If they receive a second report you can bet they will follow this up with the information they're able to get from Trainline.

I note the OP was last seen "Viewing thread How Long Should Retailers Keep Records of Ticket Purchases For?". If how long records are held for is a concern then it does point towards an ongoing issue...

 

[Snow1964]

He asked for physical ID, then to show him who I was by going through my phone, then asked for my postcode which I refused

The bylaws require you to give name and address when they suspect ticketing offences.

Technically do not have to give ID (and might not have any on you), but in the past there are crooks that have given false or friends addresses so they like to verify it if possible.

To the best of my knowledge, not required to give postcode, email address or phone number for contact. Certainly no right to view contents of a phone. The bylaws are drafted so that a notice or fine or correspondence could be physically served at address. Using postal services, email, telephone calls etc is done for convenience, but as far as I am aware but not part of the bylaws as drafted (some bylaws are so old they predate modern communications)

 

[methecooldude]

To the best of my knowledge, not required to give postcode, email address or phone number for contact. Certainly no right to view contents of a phone. The bylaws are drafted so that a notice or fine or correspondence could be physically served at address. Using postal services, email, telephone calls etc is done for convenience, but as far as I am aware but not part of the bylaws as drafted (some bylaws are so old they predate modern communications)

Your postcode forms part of your address, so it would be required. You are correct about the rest tho

 

[Snow1964]

Your postcode forms part of your address, so it would be required. You are correct about the rest tho

Apologies, I thought postcode was part of postal address, not an address (which is different as can go there, and police etc can go to an address, rather than a postal address which is for mail)

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are you required to give a date of birth? I'm fairly sure you don't.

 

[RPI]

Are you required to give a date of birth? I'm fairly sure you don't.

Strangely you are required to do so under the penalty fare regulations, but not under the byelaws or RRA.

I'd hazard a guess that the officer didn't want to "go through your phone", but requested that you show them your information in your iPhone settings or asked to see some form of social media account? All of which you are entitled to decline, but of which they are entitled to ask.

 

[jamiearmley]

I would also raise the idea that speaking your details out loud in front of others on a crowded train brings it's own set of issues, not least that others may overhear and use such detail for their own purposes.

Whilst no one is compelled to show ID, it seems to me that quietly allowing your details to be recorded from your driving licence, for example, is a wiser course than verbally providing the same.

Just because you don't HAVE to do something, doesn't mean that you should not consider whether or not it would be in your best interests not to exercise that right?

 

[AlterEgo]

The details there are a bit different, but the OP does travel twice a week, so it's easy to imagine another problem happening, isn't it, where this time their required destination changed while they were on the train?

I think those of us who are "in the know" know exactly what is happening and why the OP is concerned their details were obtained from the scan of their ticket, which was bought online leaving an audit trail. Chiltern's favourite station which serves a sports venue is almost certainly involved.

(It's also easy to imagine the OP soon being honoured with a personal reception at one end of their journey!)

Indeed.

 

[Ken H]

You only have to give your address on line to verify the card is yours. The number data in your address is sent to the bank for this reason but there are other methods of verifying cards.
So a ticket retailer may not have your address. Why would they want it for something delivered electronically.
You cant get the card number. They are held in a vault. All the retailer will have is the card type (visa, mastercard etc) and the last 4 numbers.

 

[6Gman]

Your postcode forms part of your address, so it would be required. You are correct about the rest tho

Setting aside the legal position* the postcode is very useful to the member of staff as a quick google will establish whether the address given matches. Have seen it used - ended with the BTP meeting the train at the next stop!


* I wonder if there is case law on what constitutes an "address"?

 

[Fermiboson]

* I wonder if there is case law on what constitutes an "address"?

The Supreme Court refused an FOI on the matter in 2010 (reasonably, as the court is not a law textbook). A quick perusal of the various academic references (which may be unreliable or otherwise not applicable, I can’t tell as I am not a legal professional) appears to indicate that the legal address is one you can send mail to, in which case the postcode probably is a part of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Supreme Court refused an FOI on the matter in 2010 (reasonably, as the court is not a law textbook). A quick perusal of the various academic references (which may be unreliable or otherwise not applicable, I can’t tell as I am not a legal professional) appears to indicate that the legal address is one you can send mail to, in which case the postcode probably is a part of it.

In the vast majority of the UK, the combination of the house number and postcode uniquely identify a property so you can send mail to it. The inclusion of the street name and post town in the standard address format simply provide a form of sanity checking that there isn't a wrong digit in the postcode.

Equally, it is possible for mail to reach an address if you give house number, street and postal town and no postcode, though it'll probably take longer to arrive due to the need for manual intervention when being sorted.

I don't know if there's any legal precedent, but I'd be surprised if either of those didn't constitute providing your address. Either is sufficient to serve Court papers, which is what it is about.

 

[stuartl]

Doesn't a single post code cover a number of houses ? So at least the house number would be required to identify the actual house. When I'm asked for my address on say an order form and I put my post code it gives me a list of house numbers to choose from.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Doesn't a single post code cover a number of houses ? So at least the house number would be required to identify the actual house. When I'm asked for my address on say an order form and I put my post code it gives me a list of house numbers to choose from.

That's exactly what @Bletchleyite says in the post above yours.

the combination of the house number and postcode uniquely identify a property