What happens if there are no fares in the single fares finder.

[plugwash]

There seem to be some combinations in TFL's single fares finder which say no fares available, for example reading NR to Waterloo NR.

From looking at maps I belive it is possible to make this journey without passing through any intermediate ticket barriers and without leaving the PAYG area by changing at ealing broadway, earls court, West brompton and Clapham junction.

So what happens if you do this? is there some default rule when there are no fares in the database? are their "secret" fares for obscure combinations? will the passenger get charged for two incomplete journeys?

 

[JonathanH]

So what happens if you do this? is there some default rule when there are no fares in the database? are their "secret" fares for obscure combinations? will the passenger get charged for two incomplete journeys?

There are fares for all combinations of origin and destination regardless of whether they are in the fares finder.

As discussed in another thread Reading NR to Waterloo NR will be charged at either the Reading to Zone 1 NR rate (consistent with the fare to Paddington) or the Reading to Zone 1 mixed-mode rate recognising that the underground has to be used to connect from Ealing Broadway.

Ultimately, the 'secret prices' can only be found out by making a journey (or a FOI request) but in my experience a 'normal fare' will be charged - eg Paddington NR to East Croydon NR was charged at the mixed mode rate for Zone 1 to Zone 5.

 

[MikeWh]

Ultimately, the 'secret prices' can only be found out by making a journey

Agreed

(or a FOI request)

Tried that, refused.

but in my experience a 'normal fare' will be charged - eg Paddington NR to East Croydon NR was charged at the mixed mode rate for Zone 1 to Zone 5.

Usually. Crayford to Lewisham DLR is charged as a zone 1-6 mixed fare even though it should be a zone 3-6 fare (via Greenwich).

 

[Cdd89]

Tried that, refused.

What was their refusal reason? TOC agreements like the contactless MJT stuff?

Also, is it acknowledged that these fares do come off a database, rather than some sort of on-the-fly calculation?

 

[MikeWh]

What was their refusal reason? TOC agreements like the contactless MJT stuff?

Also, is it acknowledged that these fares do come off a database, rather than some sort of on-the-fly calculation?

Your request for a ‘spreadsheet detailing all the missing fares for peak and off-peak for each of adult, 5-10, 11-15, 16-18 and disabled railcard holder’ has been withheld as it is subject to a statutory exemption to the right of access to information under section 31(a) – Law Enforcement.

A disclosure under the Freedom of Information act is a disclosure ‘to the world at large’ and whilst we make no suggestion that you would use the information for anything other than your own personal interest, in this instance the exemption has been applied as disclosure of this data could be used in an attempt to travel more cheaply than the intended fare, or without payment. This in turn could significantly damage TfL and Train Operating Companies’ revenue. As custodians of public revenue, through fares and taxation, TfL is duty bound to protect this finance on behalf of the public. Also, as there is nothing in the data which separates the ‘unreasonable’ journeys from those that are hidden for revenue protection, we are refusing this part of your request for revenue protection purposes.

The use of this exemption is subject to an assessment of the public interest in relation to the disclosure of the information concerned. We recognise the need for openness and transparency by public authorities, but in this instance feel that balance lies in favour of withholding the information to ensure that fare evasion is prevented wherever possible to protect public funds.

I may well challenge this again at some point.

 

[Watershed]

In the absence of any published fares, section 51 of the Consumer Rights Act requires that no more than a 'reasonable' price may be charged. Of course, that still gives TfL quite a bit of latitude and I think it's unlikely that e.g. being charged a mixed mode fare (when you were expecting a TfL/NR only fare) would constitute being charged more than is reasonable.

However, with the latest extensions, there are some seriously expensive journeys that can be made (£39.60 for a peak journey from Reading to Gatwick for example) so the scope does widen a little bit.

 

[kieron]

There seem to be some combinations in TFL's single fares finder which say no fares available, for example reading NR to Waterloo NR.

From looking at maps I belive it is possible to make this journey without passing through any intermediate ticket barriers and without leaving the PAYG area by changing at ealing broadway, earls court, West brompton and Clapham junction.

So what happens if you do this?

A few journeys I've checked on TfL's journey planner use the "Waterloo LU" fare whenever it doesn't have a "Waterloo NR" one. I couldn't reproduce the journey you described on it, but it uses the LU fare if I request Iver-Waterloo NR via Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green and Richmond.

It does the reverse for (say) Iver-Paddington, where no LU fare is defined. I don't know if this is what you'd actually pay, though.

 

[Class800]

I may well challenge this again at some point.

It's odd - as the national rail fares are all available for paper tickets

 

[Surreytraveller]

I may well challenge this again at some point.

Surely someone has the right to know what they're going to be charged before they decide to make a journey?

 

[JonathanH]

Surely someone has the right to know what they're going to be charged before they decide to make a journey?

I think the idea is that TfL don't want people travelling between locations where there isn't a fare in the single fare finder.

TfL / RDG are also quite happy not to make details of boundary fares available outside of Zone 6.

 

[island]

I may well challenge this again at some point.

You should. It's a completely nonsensical reason.

 

[PeterC]

I think the idea is that TfL don't want people travelling between locations where there isn't a fare in the single fare finder.

TfL / RDG are also quite happy not to make details of boundary fares available outside of Zone 6.

I thought that contactless wasn't valid on the direct service from Waterloo to Reading

Only a rail enthusiast would want to use the itinerary given and even with qualifications putting the fare in the fare finder would risk normal travellers taking an invalid route in good faith.

 

[JonathanH]

I thought that contactless wasn't valid on the direct service from Waterloo to Reading

Only a rail enthusiast would want to use the itinerary given and even with qualifications putting the fare in the fare finder would risk normal travellers taking an invalid route in good faith.

Yes, there is some merit in what you are suggesting but that doesn't stop fares being shown in the fare finder for Reading to Feltham or Reading to Vauxhall without any statement to say a direct journey isn't valid.

 

[PeterC]

I would read that as contactless being valid on a direct train.

 

[JonathanH]

I would read that as contactless being valid on a direct train.

I imagine that TfL think you look first at a map of where Contactless is valid before you look up a fare in the single fare finder.

It very much isn't valid for journeys west of Feltham to Reading.

 

[etr221]

I imagine that TfL think you look first at a map of where Contactless is valid before you look up a fare in the single fare finder.

It very much isn't valid for journeys west of Feltham to Reading.

This is one of those areas where the railway manages to shoot itself in the foot.

The "London's Rail & Tube Map" - which is what is pointed at to show the "Contactless-payment area" (as well at the Oyster area) states that "Pay as you go with contactless (card or device) or Oyster is valid
at all stations within the pay as you go area, except where shown" (which last seems to refer to it indicating the non-validity of Oyster west of West Drayton, I can't see anything else). What it does not say anything about is any restriction or non-validity for Contactless/Oyster PAYG for journeys between stations where it is valid. Similarly TfL's web page on use of contactless on National Rail (including beyond Zone 9) lists stations where contactless is valid, but says nothing as to its validity (or not) for travel between them.

So it is not unreasonable for passengers to assume that it is valid for direct journeys from Reading to Feltham or Gatwick (all stations where contactless is valid).

How are they expected to know otherwise?

 

[JonathanH]

The "London's Rail & Tube Map" - which is what is pointed at to show the "Contactless-payment area" (as well at the Oyster area) states that "Pay as you go with contactless (card or device) or Oyster is valid
at all stations within the pay as you go area, except where shown" (which last seems to refer to it indicating the non-validity of Oyster west of West Drayton, I can't see anything else).

This map https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-rail
does not show any line between Reading and either Feltham or Gatwick.

 

[etr221]

This map https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-rail
does not show any line between Reading and either Feltham or Gatwick.

So? It does say that you can use contactless at those stations; and there are direct trains between them. What says you can't use contactless on those trains? (Even if not at intermediate stations). And the single fare finder quotes fares without specifying a route.

 

[JonathanH]

So? It does say that you can use contactless at those stations; and there are direct trains between them. What says you can't use contactless on those trains? (Even if not at intermediate stations). And the single fare finder quotes fares without specifying a route.

What says you can use contactless on those trains?

As an aside, I note the somewhat odd situation with Reading to Feltham that the default fare is more expensive than the 'pink reader' route via Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green and Richmond. The default appears to be via Paddington and the District Line, avoiding a further gateline.

There is one fare scale from Reading to Gatwick Airport and it is much more expensive than anyone would expect to pay going via Guildford.

 

[m00036]

What says you can use contactless on those trains?

As an aside, I note the somewhat odd situation with Reading to Feltham that the default fare is more expensive than the 'pink reader' route via Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green and Richmond. The default appears to be via Paddington and the District Line, avoiding a further gateline.

There is one fare scale from Reading to Gatwick Airport and it is much more expensive than anyone would expect to pay going via Guildford.

It’s somewhat of an aside from the thread but pink readers are designed exactly for the purpose of determining that a passenger has avoided zone 1 (and is therefore entitled to pay a lower fare). Apologies if I’ve misunderstood your point though, perfectly possible.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s somewhat of an aside from the thread but pink readers are designed exactly for the purpose of determining that a passenger has avoided zone 1 (and is therefore entitled to pay a lower fare). Apologies if I’ve misunderstood your point though, perfectly possible.

Yes, I agree. I just note that the default route for Reading to Feltham is via Paddington, where someone would currently always encounter a gateline, until Crossrail opens at least.

 

[etr221]

What says you can use contactless on those trains?

Statements that contactless is valid at those stations (without any mention of restrictions); an advertised fare for that journey (without mention of what route or trains it applies to); and general rules that, unless otherwise indicated, tickets and fares are valid by 'any permitted route', and that a direct through train is a 'permitted route' - all these make it a perfectly reasonable assumption - in the absence of anything to the contrary - that contactless can be used on those trains.

What is missing (in various places, including those I've mentioned above) is any statement of what is assumed to be the case: that contactless can only be used for journeys wholly within the contactless PAYG area.

If that is the case, where is it stated? And if only in some relatively obscure document (and anything which has to be sought out falls into that category), how should passengers be expected to be aware of it?

As I said before, a case of the railway shooting itself in the foot...