What happens with disabled passengers when platforms are changed at the last minute?

[Wyvern]

Isnt this all a bit of a storm in a teacup? I turn up with my little scooter and the disabled area can be one or other end, but usually the country end, so its going to take me a while to travel the length of of a five or seven car train. So I ask the platform staff which way round the train will be and, if they dont know, they can ask Control, who can make arrangements if there's a platform change.

At St Pancras, people are held at the gate while cleaning is done, but I was sent down beforehand to give me plenty of time to get to front of the train.

 

[infobleep]

I would expect the passengers to wait outside till the unit is ready. If the platform information was available earlier it would be a gradual build up and people would have time to walk down and use the whole platform. Revealing it at the last minute causes great swarms to overcrowd the small area of the platform nearest the concourse. I would expect the unit to be ready and doors open at least 15 minutes before departure.

Sorry that isn't going to happen. Platform number up and passengers descend on it, hoping to make sure they get a seat and don't have to stand.

Saying that stations like Guildford do announce the platforms ages in advance. It's just the big termini that don't.

 

[infobleep]

How naive! You should see the huffs and puffs I get when I kick off the early birds who shove on on arrival 25 minutes before departure so the cleaner can clean it on one of our long distance services - it only takes just over 5 minutes but you'd think we asked them to stand outside in a thunderstorm holding a lightning rod. I'd be much happier if the platform was withheld until I advised the announcer it was ready for boarding!

The lightening rod would be amusing. Wonder how many passengers would complain that your hold up their service to deal with the body of the person who died due to being struck my lightening.

 

[Unixman]

If a platform is changed at the very last minute and announced as a change, as the train is pulling in, what happens to disabled passengers? Are they told they must catch the next train or would they hold the train up for them to get round to the platform. Would it depend on the frequency of trains as to whether it's held? I know they clearly have to be held for staff as you can't run a train without staff. It seems to be less important for able bodied people though - after all they can run between platforms.

This thought occurred to me tonight after there was a platform change announced at Woking, as the train was pulling in. The platform it was booked for was platform 5 but it came in on platform 4. This happens every so often at Woking. This was the 18.58 to Portsmouth Harbour. Now the 18.58 is a fast service, where as the 19.14 is a slow service so I can imagine people preferring to board the former, especially if they are changing trains at Havant.

A man said to platform staff that there was a lady with a push chair trying to catch it.

I don't know if the lady caught the train as I was stuck on the 18.52 arrival from Waterloo. A rare event occurred where by that train officially left Surbiton on time. However it made no difference to my journey on the service as an earlier train to Haslemere was 5 minutes late leaving Woking, which in turn delayed a stopping service, which becomes an ECS from Woking and instead of putting the 18.52 arrival onto platform 4, they let the Portsmouth Harbour train go ahead.

To make it worse for me, they the held the Portsmouth Harbour train south of Woking to let the late running Basingstoke service through. It's not easy being a signalman but often the Portsmouth Harbour train is held and run into platform 5 late. Selfishly I'd prefer that out come as I wouldn't miss the train, especially as the train is only going to be held up south of Woking anyway, judging by what happened tonight.

From my own experience, you're screwed

 

[drbdrb]

In answer to the original question, given the lack of concern for any other customers, I would guess none.

 

[infobleep]

Interestingly. Tonight the 18.52 from Surbiton arrived 3 minutes late into Woking. The 18.58 arrived into platform 5 at near 19.00. It was 2 minutes early at West Byfleet. If they had changed the platform at the last minute to platform 4, it could have arrived on time like it did last night. It may not have been able to get to Guildford any earlier but at least it could depart on time and if necessary, wait south of Woking station instead, like it did last night.

These things happen. It's split decisions that have to be made and I doubt I'd do a better job than the signalmen currently working. However I can't stop myself getting annoyed by these incidents at times!

In hindsight, if I was a signaller, I would like to have held the Portsmouth Harbour train at a red signal at platform 4 last night until the Basingstoke train had left platform 5. That way people would have more time to board the Portsmouth train and those off the Basingstoke train might also be able to board it. After all it was held south of the station anyway.

But I'm not a signalman having to make split decisions and what I might do in such situations if I was might be very different.

 

[Minilad]

Going back to the OP. Didn't the station staff that had presumably already given the tip and second tip have anything to do with all this. Or was it just the "obnoxious individual" at fault

 

[phil beard]

I am partially disabled and had fun and games at Preston on Saturday 20th September last. Our Pendo was due at one platform but turned up 30 mins late on another platform that meant a quick hike over the bridge with my luggage. The announcement only came about the change as the fifth coach entered the revised platform. Fortunately, a very kind Virgin Trains staff member grabbed my bags and got me to my coach and helped me on, but it was a close thing and not a nice experience. I pity anyone in a wheelchair on that occasion!

 

[Aictos]

late minute alterations are the bane of my life, I understand if its needed but sadly not enough info is given for them so I can understand when people get upset.

Personally though on a route which sees services of 1tph, frontline staff should be allowed within reason to hold a train to allow passengers to transfer across platforms, any delays incurred could and should be put down to the late platform alteration however on routes which see 2 or more tph they should just get the next service.

 

[Flamingo]

Saw this happen at Reading this year. Man in a wheelchair, complete with booked assistance, along with other passengers, being told at the very last minute of a platform change. Cue charge over footbridge of able bodied passengers, with wheelchair passenger, pushed by the Station Staff member to nearest lift. Able body passengers made it onto the re-platformed train with several advising the Guard. Guard says he cannot hold the Train, as out of the lift appears said wheelchair passenger along with Station Staff member. As the wheelchair passenger reaches his designated (and booked) carriage, Guard locks the door and gives the 'Right Away' signal to the Driver. Cue one upset wheelchair passenger and a rather angry member of Reading Station Staff, along with several disgusted passengers on the Train as it slowly pulled away.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the TRAIN MANAGER would not have locked the doors or given the signal to start until he was told it was all clear to do so by the Station staff. Once they have told him to do so, the interview without coffee would center on why he had delayed the train and several hundred people on it after being told to get out of there by the station staff, and what poor customer service this was to the several hundred people on the train, and the several hundred people on the train behind, and behind that (as Reading does have trains queued up at two minute intervals).

 

[Muzer]

I've very occasionally seen completely pointless-seeming last-minute platform alterations - I'm guessing these are as a result of honest mistakes on behalf of the signaller. I'm talking about two on-time non-conflicting trains that arrive very close to each other having their platforms swapped, that sort of thing.

In one case it happened at Salisbury - I wonder if the lack of train describer berths on the panel itself is what contributed to this?

 

[Hornet]

Next train into that platform was mine, seven minutes later. The Guard (will not call him a Train Manager because of his inability to correctly manage the situation), took it upon himself to give the 'Right Away' signal to the Driver, as the only member of the Station Staff on that Platform was trying to help the wheelchair user.

 

[duncanp]

This happened to me on holiday in France this year.

The train from Douai to Lille Flandres was showing on the screens as departing from Platform 5.

At precisely the right time the train pulled into Platform 1.

With a typically Gallic shrug of the shoulders the SNCF station staff told everyone to get over to Platform 1 (down the stairs and through the subway) , and that was it.

The train left on time - some people made it and some people didn't.

 

[muz379]

Next train into that platform was mine, seven minutes later. The Guard (will not call him a Train Manager because of his inability to correctly manage the situation), took it upon himself to give the 'Right Away' signal to the Driver, as the only member of the Station Staff on that Platform was trying to help the wheelchair user.

Were you actually on the train in question ?

 

[Flamingo]

Next train into that platform was mine, seven minutes later. The Guard (will not call him a Train Manager because of his inability to correctly manage the situation), took it upon himself to give the 'Right Away' signal to the Driver, as the only member of the Station Staff on that Platform was trying to help the wheelchair user.

As a Train Manager who works trains through Reading several times a day, the Sectional Appendix instructions for Reading is that is NOT a station that trains can self-dispatch from. Therefore, the TRAIN MANAGER would not have either locked the doors until given the tip (ie instructed to) by the PLATFORM staff.

If they were all so busy trying to get the wheelchair on, who gave the TRAIN MANAGER the tip both to lock the doors (after which they can only be unlocked in an emergency), and Right Away?

You might know about how to set up coloured lights - you obviously know nothing about dispatch procedures at manned stations.

Of course, a large part of the blame of that situation occuring rests with the signaller, but I notice you are not blaming them for poor planning (despite Reading being a nightmare and some decisions beyond comprehension, new platforms notwithstanding).

 

[Hornet]

So if there is no Train Dispatcher on that Platform at the time the Train just sits there. Fair enough. It's a pity that the Guard didn't wait for him then. Perhaps he should read the Sectional Appendix or be sent on a refresher course.

 

[Aictos]

Sorry to say but I'm getting a little fed up of your ranting that its the bad old guard at fault here, as a teacher used to proclaim to us it takes two to tango I can't fail to see that you aren't looking at the bigger picture instead just trying to debate with rose tinted specs.

1. The allocation of platforms at any station is prearranged by train planners via station working books for that location which the signaller then uses to regulate the services in their area, the signallers have to stick with that but from time to time platform alterations do need to be done for operational purposes.

2. The train manager would not have departed without a dispatcher giving them the first nod to close all the doors and then of course wouldn't have given the driver the right away unless the dispatcher gave the guard the right away by confirming all the doors were secure and the train ready for departure.

3. There are multiple dispatchers at Reading, have you not thought it might have been the case that one had dispatched the train having been given instructions that a colleague would be helping the passenger onto the next available train?

4. There are things in life known as last minute platform alterations, I have to deal with them and despite being the bane of my life I know there's a reason behind it, I don't rant and rave about it maybe it's time for you to take a chill pill?

Flamingo has tried his best to reason with your ranting and it's quite frankly annoying, your ranting that is not Flamingos reasoning.

 

[muz379]

You were not on the train , so you do not actually know why the Train manager did not wait to let the wheelchair user on . He might have already had all of the available spaces for a wheelchair user occupied so no more space for them . He might have been under strict instruction from control or the signaler to not wait around .

 

[Hornet]

Sorry to say but I'm getting a little fed up of your ranting that its the bad old guard at fault here, as a teacher used to proclaim to us it takes two to tango I can't fail to see that you aren't looking at the bigger picture instead just trying to debate with rose tinted specs.

1. The allocation of platforms at any station is prearranged by train planners via station working books for that location which the signaller then uses to regulate the services in their area, the signallers have to stick with that but from time to time platform alterations do need to be done for operational purposes.

2. The train manager would not have departed without a dispatcher giving them the first nod to close all the doors and then of course wouldn't have given the driver the right away unless the dispatcher gave the guard the right away by confirming all the doors were secure and the train ready for departure.

3. There are multiple dispatchers at Reading, have you not thought it might have been the case that one had dispatched the train having been given instructions that a colleague would be helping the passenger onto the next available train?

4. There are things in life known as last minute platform alterations, I have to deal with them and despite being the bane of my life I know there's a reason behind it, I don't rant and rave about it maybe it's time for you to take a chill pill?

Flamingo has tried his best to reason with your ranting and it's quite frankly annoying, your ranting that is not Flamingos reasoning.

I posted about a factual experience that occured in front of me. Other posters, like yourself seem to be intimating that it is all made up. It's not. I'm fully aware of why Trains are re-platformed. If a Guard decides to take it upon himself to lock the doors and give 'Right Away' without a Train Despatcher around, is that not cause for concern? Ranting, well thats one where people write thing in capital letters to tell you how important they think they are. I just observed an event involving a last minute re-platforming, with an announcement made just as the Train was entering it's revised platform. A wheelchair passenger was left behind even though he had made it to the Train, and his fellow passengers had advised the Guard of such. I make no apologies for being on the side of the aggrieved wheelchair passenger and member of the Station Staff who tried to help him. Still I don't mind if people on here want to vent their spleen at me, if they perceive a slight on their integrity. One thing about working as a Signalling Engineer in the Rail Industry is having to have a thick skin, with the amount of abuse we suffer from all sorts of people who should know better. Comes with the territory.

 

[Aictos]

I give up, no point in trying to reason with people here, I still think people need to take a chill pill from time to time though!!!

 

[Flamingo]

So if there is no Train Dispatcher on that Platform at the time the Train just sits there. Fair enough. It's a pity that the Guard didn't wait for him then. Perhaps he should read the Sectional Appendix or be sent on a refresher course.

Trust me, if he had self-dispatched from Reading he would have been, and I would have heard about it - incidents like that are invariably followed up with a memo in every TM's mail drop reminding them of the dispatch procedure for that station, a re-brief on our regular safety brief, and a lot of gossip in the Messroom.

I don't think the fact that you are a Signalling Engineer is the reason you have a thick skin - people would be calling you a pillock even if you were nothing to do with the railway!

 

[infobleep]

Interestingly earlier signalling problems at Alton are causing problems tonight.

The 17.39 to Woking left Surbiton on time but I was late leaving work. I didn't have time to catch the 17.48 stopping service. There was an additional 17.54 which was starting short at Surbiton. It normally doesn't stop or start here. Unfortunately they had decided it still would run fast to Brookwood. The 17.57 to Guildford was cancelled due to a train fault. The next train isn't for another 30 minutes to that town.

Unlike the train forming the 17.54, they decided that the train forming the 18.09 should go to Waterloo first, so that was due to arrive at 18.30. The 18.14 slow service to Woking was running late and eventually left about 18.20. The 18.18 slow service to Woking was on time but the signaller decided to delay it so the 18.14 could turn up and depart late first. We left 5 minutes late and got held up south of Surbiton as well.

I imagine we will delay both the 18.09 and 18.40 services. I think it would have been better if we left first given we use platform 5 and the 18.14 uses platform 3, which has no other services using it straight after but I'm not a signaller trying to fit everything in. SWT control may have had a say in all of this too.

I think this highlights how complicated it is. I boarded the 18.18 in the hope I might at least make the 18.58 from Woking to Guildford. Wasn't sure what my chances would be tonight on the 18.09 or 18.40. I am expecting them to get stuck behind us at some point. Won't be too happy if they overtake my train.

 

[infobleep]

I've now realised why we were held up. There is loads of padding between West Byfleet and Woking. In fact the Basingstoke train that was running 22 minutes late did manage to overtake us. They also decided to run it fast between Woking and Basingstoke. Makes one wonder even more why the earlier train started at Surbiton wasn't stopped at Woking.

I guess we were held up on route. Guess what we are now being held outside Woking. If I'd known this would be the out come I'd have got the faster trains but it seems to be impossible to know what is going on because every event seems to be handled differently. I'm sure that's not actually the case. Now moved forward and stopped again.

My connecting train leaves in 3 minutes.

I wonder if I got home more than an hour late could I claim or would they say I should have boarded the faster later trains?

At least guard is keeping us informed. Currently 8 minutes late and counting. Now waiting for a vacant platform.

Looks like all the fast trains are running with 15+ minute delays so I'll be OK. Wasn't aware they were having problems too as the alert about Alton train signalling problems was removed, the problems having been resolved. I should have checked Woking page. Interestingly when I left Surbiton many of the delayed trains were almost running on time. Had I got the left running 18.09 I could have connected with a late running Haslemere train but I wouldn't have known it would be late.

Congestion isn't a good enough reason for putting up a delay notice on the National Rail Enquiries App it seems and has seemed for sometime.

 

[Mark62]

It's time for a test case under the disability discrimination act. It's too bad if a train is made late due to last minute platform changes. Really need to start treating all passengers like human beings rather than pieces of freight .

 

[drbdrb]

Last night at Kings Cross FCC (or whatever they are called this week) did a train change, not a platform change.

They announced the slow1650 to Peterborough at platform 10, waited for people to get on, then changed their minds and decided it was the fast1640.

 

[infobleep]

Last night a passenger was taken ill on the train in front. Hopefully it was nothing to serious for them. Cue the 17.56 departure go passed into Woking on platform 4, whilst I sat on the 17.52 departure outside Woking.

I got in to Woking with less than 10 seconds spare before the doors might close, so as I needed to meet someone at 6.15 in Guildford I took a chance and ran round over the footbridge. The doors hadn't closed for the final time so I boarded quickly and practically bumped into someone as unbeknown to me the train was short formed of 8 carriages and packed. So packed they skipped Worpolesden. If I'd read the journey check pages in advance I'd have known this.

The train left over a minute late and then preceded to wait south of Woking so the other train to Basingstoke could pass. I suspect if the train hadn't been short formed it would have left Woking on time and waited south of the station for even longer and I'd have missed it. So it's short formation did me a favour.

After all of that the person I was meeting got stuck in traffic around Guildford for an hour, having set off 17.30.

 

[Mark62]

I was travelling from Derby to Sheffield on yesterday. I planned to get the 11.11. However this train was delayed because the train in front had been delayed at a station as it had to wait for a member of the train crew to arrive. clearly this was a non essential member as the train was already en route. So it seems that trains can be held at stations when it suits. Clearly they don't seem very interested in holding them for a wheelchair. I really feel that those who are like this should spend some time in a wheelchair just to understand how vulnerable and dependent one can feel. I have been there myself and it is a very scary place to be. We need to just have a little more compassion some times and just try and understand that not everyone is as fortunate as we are.

 

[Tomnick]

I was travelling from Derby to Sheffield on yesterday. I planned to get the 11.11. However this train was delayed because the train in front had been delayed at a station as it had to wait for a member of the train crew to arrive. clearly this was a non essential member as the train was already en route.

Trains aren't always worked throughout by the same crew, you know - it isn't unheard of* for traincrew to be booked relief at an intermediate location...!

* - to the extent that it must happen dozens of times each day, at Derby alone!

 

[muz379]

I was travelling from Derby to Sheffield on yesterday. I planned to get the 11.11. However this train was delayed because the train in front had been delayed at a station as it had to wait for a member of the train crew to arrive. clearly this was a non essential member as the train was already en route. So it seems that trains can be held at stations when it suits. Clearly they don't seem very interested in holding them for a wheelchair. I really feel that those who are like this should spend some time in a wheelchair just to understand how vulnerable and dependent one can feel. I have been there myself and it is a very scary place to be. We need to just have a little more compassion some times and just try and understand that not everyone is as fortunate as we are.

Often Traincrew changes occur en-route with drivers and guards . I know where I work driver and guard changes often happen on services running through Manchester Oxford Road , Preston and Wigan .So lets take a Blackpool North to Liverpool Lime Street service . The driver or guard could change at Preston or Wigan North Western I know myself as I have done it many times . There have been occasions when the driver or guard that are due to take over are running late , have to take a late PNB or are just sat in the mess room reading their paper and completely loose track of time . If that member of traincrew is not there on time the train cant proceed its not a case of the TOCS having a choice in this . The issue is investigated by someone in delays to find out what happened and why . But it certainly doesnt suit because if the delay is attributed to the TOC they pay massive fines .


I agree with you as much should be done as can to assist disabled passengers in the event of a late alteration to platform . But at an unmanned station if the guard / driver doesn't know the platform has been switched sometimes or if is done last minute and the guard/driver doesn't know that there is a disabled passenger making their way over then that person will get left behind through no fault of anybodies .One thing that will IMO see increased roll outs and would be of assistance to disabled passengers is the help points so they can contact somebody should they miss their service especially at places with limited services .

 

[455driver]

I was travelling from Derby to Sheffield on yesterday. I planned to get the 11.11. However this train was delayed because the train in front had been delayed at a station as it had to wait for a member of the train crew to arrive. clearly this was a non essential member as the train was already en route. So it seems that trains can be held at stations when it suits. Clearly they don't seem very interested in holding them for a wheelchair. I really feel that those who are like this should spend some time in a wheelchair just to understand how vulnerable and dependent one can feel. I have been there myself and it is a very scary place to be. We need to just have a little more compassion sometimes and just try and understand that not everyone is as fortunate as we are.

Rather a big assumption there!
Some trains can have several drivers to cover the whole route and I dont just mean the long distance ones.
One springs to mind is a Penzance to Cardiff job which has drivers from-
Penzance to Plymouth, Plymouth to Newton Abbot, Newton Abbot to Exeter, Exeter to Bristol and Bristol to Cardiff.

As for the rest of your post, very nice piece of self righteous condemnation!

Edit-
Drivers can sometimes change over at Taunton or Weston Super Mare.
The Guards can also change over at different places to the driver as well.