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What happens with regard to trains, signals etc when there is a power failure

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snuk

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Hi all,

I'm sorry if this is a bit if a newbie question but I was wondering - we had a couple of power cuts today each lasting for over an hour.

What happens with regards to trains, signals etc when there is a power cut - I know that some trains are electric and some diesel which presumably would still run - is there a backup system for signals etc? like generators?

Also, for instance there was a local power failure somewhere on the WCML for example, Pendolinos, 350's etc are electric - would the power be diverted from elsewhere as a priority? I appriciate that in the case of a signal/electrical hardware/cable failure then this wouldn't be possible.

Just curious how these things work.

Many thanks,

Steve.
 
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Aictos

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I can only comment on what I can gather from past experience, there's a backup generators at certain GN locations which supply a emergency supply of electricity to the signals as to keep them working otherwise working to Absolute Block. Now I welcome anyone from NR to correct me but I was discussing something like this last night with one of the guys I know from NR and there's a signalling panel at Wood Green (Alexandra Palace), Hertford North, Hitchin, Welwyn Garden City might have one, Woolmer Green etc.

Like I said, I'm a newbie to signalling so await a more experienced colleague to correct me.
 

driver9000

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I was once told by a singalman there is a back up supply battery for signalboxes which is supposed to last for a few hours, the signals are backed up too, but these can and do fail aswell leading to signals going 'black' ie no aspect showing.

Ajax in a power failure the TCB cant be operated under Absolute Block this is a totally different system with its own rules, the method you are refering to is Temporary Block Working which enables trains to 'ignore' signals under authority of a special ticket and handsignallers. TBW can only be implemented where the failure affects 2 or more consecutive signals capable of showing a Danger aspect and cannot be introduced onto AB, Bi-Directional or Single lines.
 
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Aictos

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I was once told by a singalman there is a back up supply battery for signalboxes which is supposed to last for a few hours, the signals are backed up too, but these can and do fail aswell leading to signals going 'black' ie no aspect showing.

Ajax in a power failure the TCB cant be operated under Absolute Block this is a totally different system with its own rules, the method you are refering to is Temporary Block Working which enables trains to 'ignore' signals under authority of a special ticket and handsignallers. TBW can only be implemented where the failure affects 2 or more consecutive signals capable of showing a Danger aspect and cannot be introduced onto AB, Bi-Directional or Single lines.

Sorry, I don't work with signals so am not 100% sure on the working of them yet! Thanks, however for explaining it better to me and to the OP.
 

turbo mick

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power cuts can give the old drivers a scare or two i was in the middle of a storm approaching Reading West station on the up westbury coming from basingstoke and the signal i was approaching reverted to RED due to lightning strike at Reading Psb i applied emerg brakes and TPWS dumped me brakes thinking i was going by the signal which i didnt,this caused the backup generator to kick in at the box.

And i wasnt the only driver reporting COA
 

philjo

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I can only comment on what I can gather from past experience, there's a backup generators at certain GN locations which supply a emergency supply of electricity to the signals as to keep them working otherwise working to Absolute Block. Now I welcome anyone from NR to correct me but I was discussing something like this last night with one of the guys I know from NR and there's a signalling panel at Wood Green (Alexandra Palace), Hertford North, Hitchin, Welwyn Garden City might have one, Woolmer Green etc.

Like I said, I'm a newbie to signalling so await a more experienced colleague to correct me.

when the lineside fire closed Kings cross singalling centre a couple of years ago as it was within the evacuation zone , a limited emergency timetable was run from Finsbury Park for 2 days. I know that the signalling was run from local panels including WGC & Hitchin
 

O L Leigh

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Power failures affect the railway in different ways depending on precisely what part of the railway has been affected.

A local power cut will affect some of the infrastructure as some of it does run from the local domestic grid. These include things like station lights and DOO monitors. While the loss of monitors is always a bit of a pain, loss of station lights is only really a problem after dark as it constitutes a health and safety risk. Strictly speaking, trains are not to stop at any blacked-out station.

However, the signalling and communication equipment and any electrification does not rely on the local domestic grid. Loss of power to the signalling equipment is rare, but the rules do allow for drivers to be able to pass certain types of signals at danger on their own authority under some circumstances, so at least some degree of movement is permitted. Mind you, loss of traction current on electified lines is a bit more problematic.

O L Leigh
 

Aictos

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But trains can stop at black out stations if emergency lighting is in use or if none are yet available but are on the way then the train could be use to provide lighting outwards onto the platform until all the passengers have left the platform as has been done in my area before.
 

GB

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when the lineside fire closed Kings cross singalling centre a couple of years ago as it was within the evacuation zone , a limited emergency timetable was run from Finsbury Park for 2 days. I know that the signalling was run from local panels including WGC & Hitchin

They are known a slave panels and offer a very basic and limited operation.
 

O L Leigh

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But trains can stop at black out stations if emergency lighting is in use or if none are yet available but are on the way then the train could be use to provide lighting outwards onto the platform until all the passengers have left the platform as has been done in my area before.

Sure it can be done, but it's not very safe. The amount of light thrown from the train onto the platform is limited, but it is no use when the punters have to go over a footbridge/through a subway and out through the booking hall, all of which will still be in total darkness.

This is why we tend not to stop.

O L Leigh
 

33056

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The supplies for traction current and signalling are separate from each other and from the domestic supply; some signalboxes do have a standby generator, but that is not always the case.

The biggest problem with loosing the signal supply is that the signaller will loose all the point and signal indications, not so much a problem in a small mechanical box, but a big headache in a power box as they will have no idea which way the points are set, or be able to prove that they are set correctly. The signals will generally go "black", ie show no aspect at all, though I have personally experienced partial failures where some signals go out and some remain lit, the only way then of finding out what is doing what is to ask drivers to report each signal aspect, assuming that you are able to move trains.

Many years ago I was working a large PSB on a main line which had a planned power cut in order to work on the signalling supply. It was done on a Sunday night / Monday morning (quietest time and no engineering works) and a 20 mile-odd stretch of track had to be totally clear of trains before they switched the power off. When they did, everything went out and we had two "agents" armed with hand-lamps standing at designated signals, dividing the area of control into two "block sections". There were also an awful lot of point clips used to secure all the points as we would not have any indications for the duration of the work.

It was rather surreal, taking the phone calls to accept the trains into the sections and doing full booking as you would in an Absolute Block box with the panel totally blank and knowing that the trains were out there somewhere!
 

Metroland

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Power supplies are quite localised. With relay interlocking for example, there is a local power supply to each relay room. So you can have a failure in one location, and not others. SSI also has local feeding arrangements to an extent as well.

But there is back up generators and batteries, so a public power supply is normally no problem. The main power supply to a main PSB/IECC will always have a back up generator.

What normally happens with a power failure, is that indications are lost of a second or 2, but it depends on the installation. With most modern power boxes you have uninterruptable power supplies. (UPS)

If all else fails, temporary block working and handsignalmen can be used.

For electrification you normally have alternative feed arrangements, so if there is no supply to a feeder station, power can be taken from another with remote switching operations.
 

devon_metro

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Bristol - Bradford On Avon was knocked out for 6 hours yesterday due to cables being cut. All signals blank, everything on stop.
 

Smoggy

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For example, on TV4 they are PSP's (Principle Supply Points) located at numerous locations (Armitage, Elmhurst, Lichfield etc). These supply the S&T. The principle supply is from the 25kV. If this fails, then the secondary supply is the local domestic supply. Failing that, the tertiary supply is from batteries will last until a mobile generator can be brought to the site. In theory, the changeover from each supply should be uninterrrupted.

On the OLE, each section has seperate feeds. So as previous posters have mentioned if one feeder fails, it can be feed from from an adjacent feeder. Likewise down here on East London Lines, the TSS's feed multiple sections to ensure continuous supply at all times if one sub goes down.
 

Bayum

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So, what happens when say theres a powercut in a large city say Edinburgh, and Class 91's etc??

I was on a 91 when there was a Powercut in Edinburgh a few years ago, and the train was able to get into the station, although the signals were down, and so was every other type of electrical appliance or anything that needed electricity in the city!
 

37401

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So, what happens when say theres a powercut in a large city say Edinburgh, and Class 91's etc??

I was on a 91 when there was a Powercut in Edinburgh a few years ago, and the train was able to get into the station, although the signals were down, and so was every other type of electrical appliance or anything that needed electricity in the city!

As said before, it runs off a seprate power supply so you can get into the station
 

Metroland

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I always think that the railway should go back to generating its own power supplies anyway, and use the grid as a backup. This was the case in the early days, and is still the case in Switzerland and Germany and was recently the case with London Underground.

It's going to be interesting in the next few years to see if the grid will remain reliable, considering the forthcoming energy crunch. As usual there is no joined up thinking in Government who plan electric cars and replacing gas central heating with electricity, yet it will be a miracle if the current grid holds up.

==============

IN THE frigid opening days of 2009, Britain’s electricity demand peaked at 59 gigawatts (GW). Just over 45% of that came from power plants fuelled by gas from the North Sea. A further 35% or so came from coal, less than 15% from nuclear power and the rest from a hotch-potch of other sources. By 2015, assuming that modest economic growth resumes, a reasonable guess is that Britain will need around 64GW to cope with similar conditions. Where will that come from?

North Sea gas has served Britain well, but supply peaked in 1999. Since then the flow has fallen by half; by 2015 it will have dropped by two-thirds. By 2015 four of Britain’s ten nuclear stations will have shut and no new ones could be ready for years after that. As for coal, it is fiendishly dirty: Britain will be breaking just about every green promise it has ever made if it is using anything like as much as it does today. Renewable energy sources will help, but even if the wind and waves can be harnessed (and Britain has plenty of both), these on-off forces cannot easily replace more predictable gas, nuclear and coal power. There will be a shortfall—perhaps of as much as 20GW—which, if nothing radical is done, will have to be met from imported gas. A large chunk of it may come from Vladimir Putin’s deeply unreliable and corrupt Russia.

With gas too risky, coal too dirty, nuclear too slow and renewables too unreliable, Britain is in a bind. What can it do to get out of it? At this stage, there is no lightning-bolt solution, but two things would prevent matters from getting worse.

Many of Britain’s neighbours may find this rather amusing. Britain, the only big west European country that could have joined the oil producers’ club OPEC, the country that used to lecture the world about energy liberalisation, is heading towards South African-style power cuts, with homes and factories plunged intermittently into third-world darkness.

The first has to do with infrastructure. Companies must be cajoled or bribed into building gas storage. At the moment there is barely a week’s worth, so there is nothing to lessen the impact of price rises and the shenanigans of foreign powers. More cross-Channel power cables would help, allowing Britain to import electricity directly from its better-supplied neighbours (and also helping create a Europe-wide power grid, thus improving security for all EU members).

Second, carbon must be taxed if firms are to invest in long-term, expensive, technology-heavy projects such as nuclear plants, cleaning up coal and taming renewable sources of power. Carbon is already assigned a price through the European cap-and-trade mechanism, but the system is focused on the short term, vulnerable to gaming and plagued by hugely fluctuating prices. A tax on carbon is hardly going to stop the lights going out in a few years, but it would provide a floor price for power, giving investors a clearer sense of likely profits. In the meantime you know who to blame.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14167834

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14177328
 

asylumxl

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Sure it can be done, but it's not very safe. The amount of light thrown from the train onto the platform is limited, but it is no use when the punters have to go over a footbridge/through a subway and out through the booking hall, all of which will still be in total darkness.

This is why we tend not to stop.

O L Leigh

On a sort of on topic note, honestly, on the Thameslink route I've got to say alot of the stations are appallingly lit (e.g. Radlett) , which is every bit as bad as not lit at all. The first station to have good lighting is St Albans.

Are the TOCs required to have a certain amount of illumination, or is any illumination considered fine?
 
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