What incentive is there to go by train?

[Mcr Warrior]

Train specific advance fares?

 

[miami]

That's only true to a point though, in that if the only reason that car ownership is justified is down to the fact that not all the costs have been considered.

People own a car because they need a car to make the vast majority of journeys which can't be made by train. Not owning a far is a lifestyle choice far in excess of the marginal cost of a journey.

I'm confused as to where that fare quote has come from.

A return fare is £98.20. Off peak isn't valid for leaving before 0900.

Clearly enthusiasts know that you can make savings by doing things like splitting tickets. That's not good enough.

However, even planning one week out can make a difference, for instance Norwich to Nottingham on Wednesday is £69

Until your plans change and you want to leave an hour earlier, or later.

It also depends on your proximity to the location of the car hire, as travel to/from can add time to the journey

You're just as likely to be close to one of the two enterprise (other car hire places are available) in Norwich as to the station. You'll likely have the car dropped off to you, but if not it's a taxi to either place.

(In actual reality you drive your own car for far less than the car hire cost)

 

[RT4038]

People own a car because they need a car to make the vast majority of journeys which can't be made by train. Not owning a far is a lifestyle choice far in excess of the marginal cost of a journey.



A return fare is £98.20. Off peak isn't valid for leaving before 0900.

Clearly enthusiasts know that you can make savings by doing things like splitting tickets. That's not good enough.



Until your plans change and you want to leave an hour earlier, or later.



You're just as likely to be close to one of the two enterprise (other car hire places are available) in Norwich as to the station. You'll likely have the car dropped off to you, but if not it's a taxi to either place.

(In actual reality you drive your own car for far less than the car hire cost)

(Pre-Covid) the railways were carrying record numbers of passengers, with many services overcrowded.
There must have been 'incentives' for these passengers to travel by train, and I would suggest the following:

• Some people do not have access to a car, because either they can't drive, they feel they can't afford one or the only one they have access to is being used for another journey at that time. This is closest to the 'distressed' purchase, but some of these could have gone by bus or coach instead for a cheaper ride.
• Some people have access to a car, but choose to travel by train because it is more convenient/less hassle (traffic congestion en-route, parking at destination, don't particularly like driving, wish to work/sleep/listen to music en route)
• Some people do not wish to/do not need to/are incapable of, complicated financial appraisals of their transport journeys.

Not everyone is obsessed with the most economical means of transport. If you are one of those people, it is unlikely that trains will generally be for you (except possibly on regular trips to Central London). If train fares were reduced to be 'attractive' to those obsessed with economy, the resultant overcrowding would make trains less 'attractive' to the existing passengers above.

 

[Starmill]

A return fare is £98.20. Off peak isn't valid for leaving before 0900.

Clearly enthusiasts know that you can make savings by doing things like splitting tickets. That's not good enough.

I know. I was going to suggest that £69 for a return was too low a price. £98.20 is the likely one, and the cheaper option is still £75.70. Conversely if it was only a single being looked at, all three prices are too high. Perhaps it was a pair of Advance tickets, which would make it a bit questionable.

 

[ChrisC]

If you are in a small city like Nottingham or Norwich, then I can see how the car works best. But in Manchester, driving is a nightmare and you’d be mad to attempt.

I know that Nottingham is not quite the size of Manchester but it can hardly be described as a small city. It is actually the 15th largest city in the UK. Perhaps even further up the list if you include areas like West Bridgford, Beeston, Arnold and Carlton which are often seen as being part of the city although just outside the city boundary.

Nottingham can have horrendous traffic problems and commuting into work by car is very much discouraged as part of the Workplace Parking Levy. Tram travel and bus use is high and encouraged but numbers commuting by train into Nottingham is quite low compared to other cities of the same size and type. With the exception of Beeston, most of the other stations within a few miles of the city centre have a very sparse service. Bulwell, Carlton, Bingham and Attenborough have little more than an hourly service, Netherfield and Radcliffe on Trent have only a handful of trains each day. Local train travel into the city cannot compete with the regular tram and bus services.

 

[The Ham]

Lets take a random journey, Norwich to Nottingham for the day, single traveller, arriving for say 11am, leaving say 4pm

Enterprise will charge you £47 for a Corsa, and another £25 in petrol for the 240 mile round trip at £1.20 a litre.

That's £67. Leave at 0730 to get to the rent-a-car for 8am.

The train costs £98, leaving the station at 0757 (and thus leaving home at 0730), back at 1930.

People own a car because they need a car to make the vast majority of journeys which can't be made by train. Not owning a far is a lifestyle choice far in excess of the marginal cost of a journey.



A return fare is £98.20. Off peak isn't valid for leaving before 0900.

Clearly enthusiasts know that you can make savings by doing things like splitting tickets. That's not good enough.



Until your plans change and you want to leave an hour earlier, or later.



You're just as likely to be close to one of the two enterprise (other car hire places are available) in Norwich as to the station. You'll likely have the car dropped off to you, but if not it's a taxi to either place.

(In actual reality you drive your own car for far less than the car hire cost)

Whilst the train tickets (£69 tickets) are advanced tickets (no split tickets) they can be changed to a different train for a fee of £10 plus any extra cost.

Actually the train arriving at 19:16 is more expensive than the next train earlier which reduces the cost to £58.

Here's a screenshot of the price quoted, showing no splits and no travel card and using a ticket reseller which many have heard of:

 

[PeterC]

Train specific advance fares?

Add on additional journey time in case your cab or bus to the station is delayed plus getting an earlier connecting service than you need takes away the time benefit and offsets the cost saving.

 

[route101]

Id like to see the Glasgow to Preston day return fare avaiible before 9am on weekdays. I like the flexiablity of it but want to leave earlier.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Id like to see the Glasgow to Preston day return fare avaiible before 9am on weekdays. I like the flexiablity of it but want to leave earlier.

It's a flexible and competitively priced Off Peak product and still gets you into Glasgow for midday. What do you expect for the price? A complimentary first class upgrade?

 

[AlbertBeale]

People own a car because they need a car to make the vast majority of journeys which can't be made by train. Not owning a far is a lifestyle choice far in excess of the marginal cost of a journey.
....

Actually, many people own a car as a lifestyle choice; most car-owners in my area don't actually need one, they use them almost exclusively for local-ish journeys that could be made by other means.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder the thread title is What incentive is there to go by train?

 

[Energy]

I think lots of people don't go by train because if you are going long distance and not to London then there is a good chance that you are going on XC which have short trains and high fares, the high fares are the main thing which immediately turn people away.

Northern certainly aren't great either, class 150s and, until fairly recently, Pacers aren't going to get new passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, we can bang on about how safe people feel until the cows come home, but high fares for many routes are still a big disincentive to using the train.

 

[yorkie]

I think lots of people don't go by train because if you are going long distance and not to London then there is a good chance that you are going on XC which have short trains and high fares, the high fares are the main thing which immediately turn people away.

Northern certainly aren't great either, class 150s and, until fairly recently, Pacers aren't going to get new passengers.

People who are sensitive to high fares on XC can use third party sites which can reduce the cost massively. Many people do this. Those that are prepared to pay any cost are less pric sensitive and effectively subsidise the cheaper fares. This is market based pricing. There is no getting away from market based pricing unless you undergo a massive project to increase capacity where needed. But with reduced income and higher costs, it may not be viable. I think this would warrant a dedicated thread (we have had then before; if you do a search you should find them)

As for the poor quality stock used by Northern, I'd say the condition of it is more of a turn off.

But I think the barriers right now are more other factors; the rail industry not infrequently treats passengers in a way that suggests they don't want the inconvenience of having to convey them.

There are so many barriers I couldn't list them all, but the rail industry just doesn't care. It's depressing.

 

[BigCj34]

People who are sensitive to high fares on XC can use third party sites which can reduce the cost massively. Many people do this. Those that are prepared to pay any cost are less pric sensitive and effectively subsidise the cheaper fares. This is market based pricing. There is no getting away from market based pricing unless you undergo a massive project to increase capacity where needed. But with reduced income and higher costs, it may not be viable. I think this would warrant a dedicated thread (we have had then before; if you do a search you should find them)

As for the poor quality stock used by Northern, I'd say the condition of it is more of a turn off.

But I think the barriers right now are more other factors; the rail industry not infrequently treats passengers in a way that suggests they don't want the inconvenience of having to convey them.

There are so many barriers I couldn't list them all, but the rail industry just doesn't care. It's depressing.

The Northern Sprinters have been refurbished many a time but quickly fall into a state. There are some things that cannot be done about the Sprinters (bar the 158), such as the lack of aircon and loud engine noise, but they can be better maintained internally. Even the 150's work but I have been on recently refurbished trains that looked work quickly.

The incentive for myself to use the train is that it is more relaxing than driving, the time it takes is comparable or better, and the price with a railcard almost always beats driving. Take the discount away and the equation drastically changes.

Environment is another factor and am happy to forego a few hours to take the train over flying for that reason. If the train was substantially more expensive than flying or driving than it becomes harder to justify on a personal level.

 

[Energy]

People who are sensitive to high fares on XC can use third party sites which can reduce the cost massively. Many people do this.

However many people when they see the high fare will not bother looking further.

As for the poor quality stock used by Northern, I'd say the condition of it is more of a turn off.

The quality is definitely an issue, Northern certainly isn't famed for clean trains.

But I think the barriers right now are more other factors; the rail industry not infrequently treats passengers in a way that suggests they don't want the inconvenience of having to convey them.

There are so many barriers I couldn't list them all, but the rail industry just doesn't care. It's depressing.

I think lots of that will be to staff moral, it must be a little depressing for them if they are at a TOC which is in desperate need for investment and is run at a low cost. The current franchise system doesn't help this, on subsidised services, such as Northern, it seems to be the cheapest bidder wins, originally Northern wouldn't get any new diesel rolling stock because it was poor value for money.

The Northern Sprinters have been refurbished many a time but quickly fall into a state.

Do the ROSCOs want to spend much money on them? Most of them are near the end of their life and with cheap leasing on new stock the Sprinters could be an easy target for new stock in the next franchise, Northern's maintenance isn't great but cheap refurbishments (or more a refresh as it seems to be changing seat covers for a lot of refurbishments...) certainly doesn't help.

 

[6Gman]

You don't reguarly use Northern, I take it...

I do actually.

 

[Robertj21a]

The high fares are enough to put off many potential passengers. Those people who have to run a car anyway (rural location, weekend and evening runs etc) are hardly likely to see the point of using trains when there's little of benefit.

 

[miami]

One way of tackling the cost problem for those who would barely consider taking the train would be to offer a "ticket for two" at 50% more than ticket for 1, and off-peak offer a "family away day" which lets 2 adults and upto 3 children travel for the price of 1 adult on an off peak day return.

Scrap the silly need to buy for a railcard which will only appeal to those likely to take the train anyway. If I go to Shrewsbury for the day I might be tempted to take the train (with bikes) rather than drive, but for a family of 4 it's far too expensive.

 

[Energy]

and off-peak offer a "family away day" which lets 2 adults and upto 3 children travel for the price of 1 adult on an off peak day return.

Chiltern have a very similar offer, its £25 for 1 adult and up to 4 children return trip to London on any trains as long as they are after 10am if on weekdays but any time at weekends. And includes the tube and bus travel for zones 1-6. It seems to be pretty popular during the holidays as it is a pretty good deal and is probably cheaper than the tube alone for many.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Chiltern have a very similar offer, its £25 for 1 adult and up to 4 children return trip to London on any trains as long as they are after 10am if on weekdays but any time at weekends

Not sure which origin station you have in mind for this offer?

 

[8J]

At present, the incentive to travel by train is almost non existent, partly down to the pandemic and partly because, as pointed out already, TOC customer service leaves a lot to be desired (treating people making honest mistakes as criminals, poor onboard catering options on long distance services, massive inconsistencies in staff appearance, visibility and helpfulness... the list goes on!)

I saw a popular YouTube trip reporter (who I believe is actually a member of this forum) was asked today a question on Instagram by one of his followers asking "what do you think the UK rail industry need to do to be successful after COVID-19" (or similar words)

His response at first glance took me aback when he said "the railway needs to be seen as a more sexy, attractive option (like the airlines)" this may seem a bit far fetched to some on here, but thinking about it, he is absolutely spot on. Virgin Trains attempted this and to an extent, succeeded.

I predict the UK rail leisure market will expand with traditional overseas holidays seen as less desirable (due to a number of reasons such as flight shaming and a larger emphasis on greener travel). The railways need to be seen as an attractive alternative to road and air travel and I think that now is the time to improve the overall product of long distance leisure travel and a lot of the things that I think need improving are very basic!

The industry needs to promote domestic UK tourism, be it to large cities, coastal towns or beauty spots. There currently is no decent platform for rail to be used as a mode of transport for a "package holiday" ie - booking a through journey from a local station to somewhere far away, including a hotel and potentially transfers via taxi to your destination.

I'd like to see a platform where rail can be used in this way and I believe it would be successful, especially if discounted fares could be utilised on quiet services for package holiday bookings.

 

[Energy]

Not sure which origin station you have in mind for this offer?

Its from any station I believe, Chiltern services only go London to Birmingham (and Oxford but that's isn't too far) so the distance doesn't vary by as much as on other operators.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Interesting, can't see that fare in the fares data so either they're doing some funny business with their website, TVMs and/or ticket offices to get it to come up, or they may have stopped selling it?

 

[Energy]

Interesting, can't see that fare in the fares data so either they're doing some funny business with their website, TVMs and/or ticket offices to get it to come up, or they may have stopped selling it?

It is on their website and you can book it, just select a return train for the correct time and add a child to the passengers thing and it will show up under returns, the off peak one is £31.00 for the route I checked (Leamington Spa to London Marylebone).

 

[Jamesrob637]

At present, the incentive to travel by train is almost non existent, partly down to the pandemic and partly because, as pointed out already, TOC customer service leaves a lot to be desired (treating people making honest mistakes as criminals, poor onboard catering options on long distance services, massive inconsistencies in staff appearance, visibility and helpfulness... the list goes on!)

I saw a popular YouTube trip reporter (who I believe is actually a member of this forum) was asked today a question on Instagram by one of his followers asking "what do you think the UK rail industry need to do to be successful after COVID-19" (or similar words)

His response at first glance took me aback when he said "the railway needs to be seen as a more sexy, attractive option (like the airlines)" this may seem a bit far fetched to some on here, but thinking about it, he is absolutely spot on. Virgin Trains attempted this and to an extent, succeeded.

I predict the UK rail leisure market will expand with traditional overseas holidays seen as less desirable (due to a number of reasons such as flight shaming and a larger emphasis on greener travel). The railways need to be seen as an attractive alternative to road and air travel and I think that now is the time to improve the overall product of long distance leisure travel and a lot of the things that I think need improving are very basic!

The industry needs to promote domestic UK tourism, be it to large cities, coastal towns or beauty spots. There currently is no decent platform for rail to be used as a mode of transport for a "package holiday" ie - booking a through journey from a local station to somewhere far away, including a hotel and potentially transfers via taxi to your destination.

I'd like to see a platform where rail can be used in this way and I believe it would be successful, especially if discounted fares could be utilised on quiet services for package holiday bookings.

I saw the same Insta post and I agree wholeheartedly with the person in question. If you're reading this, good on you.

 

[Bald Rick]

I saw the same Insta post and I agree wholeheartedly with the person in question. If you're reading this, good on you.

I get this - to a certain extent.

There is, however, a hitch.

Being very general here, the ‘traditional’ family holiday is typically parents plus 2.4 children going somewhere sunny / beach / countryside-y for 1-2 weeks. 20-30 years ago this would be either in the car to the coast or Lakes or possibly to France, or a trip abroad on a package job with Thomson / Thomas cook etc flight, coach transfers, apartment / hotel. These days the package element of the latter has largely gone. It has been replaced with more exotic trips abroad or more often, cheap flights and car hire the other end.

And that’s the issue. Most families (or at least the families I know, small sample alert), need a car at the holiday end in order to travel about - go to different beaches, see the sights, carry the bags, do the shopping and get to/from the airport etc. For most ‘foreign’ holidays, taking their own car is either impractical, much more expensive than the alternative (flights /car hire), or just an unpleasant experience. (I still have mental scars of my then 2 year old screaming all the way from Calais to the Vendée, placated only by a certain Peppa Pig DVD, on loop for 8 hours, to which I am still word perfect).

For holidays in this country, except for some journeys over around 3-400 miles, the easiest /cheapest way to get a car at the holiday end is to take your own. So that’s what families do, and generally will continue to do.

Whilst personal examples are always the worst form of evidence in a discussion like this, I will now use one. I go to Scotland a couple of times a year for walking. I need a car up there. I can fly / hirecar, train / hirecar, or drive all the way. My last 9 trips have been three of each. My choice is made on exactly where I am starting from (home or work), where I am heading to, and timings. Note I get the train for free.


It is of course different for people without kids and all the encumbrances that brings, or people who are doing city breaks, etc.

 

[3141]

I think Bald Rick's post hits several nails on the head. I also think that in looking at the question "what incentive is there to go by train?" it's necessary to consider all the circumstances of a journey. In some situations going by train makes sense, while in others it's unrealistic in terms of cost, time, or convenience. If the rail industry wanted to attract more travellers it would have to identify the sectors to focus on and which others would be a waste of time. Another imperative would be not to try to increase passenger numbers on routes or at times when trains are already full. Pre Covid some routes did not have the capacity for many additional passengers, but some TOCs were trying to attract more custom where capacity did exist, e.g. LNER and Virgin WC. It's possible that post Covid a more general appeal might be worthwhile to try to bring passengers back.

 

[Robertj21a]

For me it's a combination of high prices and general unreliability. To have to keep to specified times in order to get cheaper Advance fares is bad enough but to then find that many trains are running late or cancelled just makes the whole situation stressful
Needless to say, I usually end up using the car.

 

[al78]

Compared to driving and flying the comparisons are often misleading. While fuel costs are sometimes cheaper than train tickets it doesn't normally take into account things like congestion charges, parking, insurance and maintenance. Also while delays are frustrating very few people take into account delays from being "stuck in traffic" when comparing it to trains. Also compared to flying while end to end journey times are normally quicker people forget to take into account the time taken to get to and from an airport, airport security and having to wait in a departures lounge.

Most people have a car and so the cost comparison should be to compare the rail fare to the tangible cost of driving, which for most will be the fuel and parking (few places have congestion charging). If you own a car, the ownership costs of tax, insurance, MOT and servicing have to be paid no matter how little or often you drive. Delays aren't a tangible cost unless the extra time taken to complete a journey has directly denied you the ability to earn money (how would you honestly have used the time if you weren't delayed?).

For me, to visit family, rail fare around £100 now that advance tickets are virtually unobtainable. Driving, £40 in petrol, and whilst up there, I have the ability to visit a national park, hike up and down a big hill, and get back in time for an evening meal.

Many people use rail because despite its faults, it is the most practical (or only feasible) way to make their journey. I use trains to reduce driving mileage and/or when cycling the distance would render me heavily fatigued, because I try to live more ecologically responsibly. I was fortunate two Sundays ago that bike and train from Horsham to Pyecombe was quicker than cycling the full distance (helped by the train home turning up at Hassocks at the exact time I arrived at the station and short connection times).