Building from this thread, there are various comments about heritage railways being too long and that extensions aren't really worth the time, cost or trouble. This put the question into my mind what is the optimum length of a heritage operation? Personally when I'm heading to one I want it to be be worth the journey, ie I want to have a 'day out' as it were, so a decent ride is paramount. I'm not really minded to drive 40 miles to somewhere that has 1 mile of track. Thoughts?
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
What is the Optimum Length of a Heritage Railway?
- Thread starter Thebaz
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I would say time more than distance is important and also what's at the other end. A run that takes around 40 minutes (so an 80 minute round trip) with something at the other end (be that a nice town to explore or the depot facilities or similar) is about right for me. You can have the "main attraction" at the middle of the run as well (say the Isle of White Steam Railway where their main base is in the middle) as long as the timetable is well designed so you can still do the line without having a second break back at the mid-point! Just sitting on a train dawdling along at 20mph for an hour to a station with nothing at it to then dawdle back another hour is not my idea of a good time...
But if your run is only 10 minutes then you better price it accordingly and/or have a very very interesting main base to explore. The Buckinghamshire Railway Centre falls into that category. You got a train from Aylesbury to their site which took about ten minutes or so but then the Centre itself required a good couple of hours to explore before catching a train back to Aylesbury.
But if your run is only 10 minutes then you better price it accordingly and/or have a very very interesting main base to explore. The Buckinghamshire Railway Centre falls into that category. You got a train from Aylesbury to their site which took about ten minutes or so but then the Centre itself required a good couple of hours to explore before catching a train back to Aylesbury.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
The 5 mile, 60-minute round-trip Llanberis Lake Railway is close to ideal. The fare is £10 return for one adult or £28 for two adults and two children.
The journey has good views and is always steam hauled. It is possible to disembark mid way for a bit of an explore and either catch the next train or walk back.
We still haven't travled the WHR from Caernarfon to Porthmadog, despite having lived nearby for 16 years. 7 hours is too long. I'm worried Debbie would be bored and uncomfortable, especially on the return. For that matter, I might be too.
The journey has good views and is always steam hauled. It is possible to disembark mid way for a bit of an explore and either catch the next train or walk back.
We still haven't travled the WHR from Caernarfon to Porthmadog, despite having lived nearby for 16 years. 7 hours is too long. I'm worried Debbie would be bored and uncomfortable, especially on the return. For that matter, I might be too.
Last edited:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd say it's journey time rather than length, so speed will matter. I would say not less than half an hour, but not more than an hour, each way. Too short and it feels like you've not done very much, too long and kids get bored and misbehave (and families are a key market).
The Ffestiniog are finding that the full Welsh Highland journey is too long - hence the shorter journeys from each end being the majority of the offering.
I've done the full length and it is a bit long to do both ways. Perhaps better done one way and then return by bus on the T2 which is considerably quicker (about 45 minutes).
I'd recommend doing Caernarfon-Porthmadog over the other way, as the "semifast" run into Porthmadog (alongside the WHR(P) ) just seems to feel quite fitting at the end of the trip.
I actually think they'd do well to offer as one of their "railtours" a train one way, coach the other option with a hired coach, as I think they may find that easier to sell than both ways on the very slow train. Could save them costs as they could reduce it to one train pair a day (so if you wanted to do both ways it would only run from one end). Perhaps to add to the experience it could be a historic coach.
The Ffestiniog are finding that the full Welsh Highland journey is too long - hence the shorter journeys from each end being the majority of the offering.
I've done the full length and it is a bit long to do both ways. Perhaps better done one way and then return by bus on the T2 which is considerably quicker (about 45 minutes).
I'd recommend doing Caernarfon-Porthmadog over the other way, as the "semifast" run into Porthmadog (alongside the WHR(P) ) just seems to feel quite fitting at the end of the trip.
I actually think they'd do well to offer as one of their "railtours" a train one way, coach the other option with a hired coach, as I think they may find that easier to sell than both ways on the very slow train. Could save them costs as they could reduce it to one train pair a day (so if you wanted to do both ways it would only run from one end). Perhaps to add to the experience it could be a historic coach.
Last edited:
Yes about 3 years ago in one of the rail mags, someone wrote about the optimum length that would be manageable is circa 5 to 6 miles.
I think even more so these days its relevant given the lack of volunteers.
A long railway takes a lot of looking after, not to mention wear and tear of the locos, rolling stock and infrastructure. Then there's the pricing, which with a long railway if you are going to do end to end return can be quite expensive.
I appreciate that many persevered railways didn't have a lot of choice in taking over a line and they're stuck with it to go from somewhere to somewhere, so its a delicate balancing act to rely on foot fall alone. Always there is the need for supplementary activities to help fund the operation.
STINT47
Member
Around seven to nine miles is ideal. Long enough to feel like you've gone somewhere and had value for money whilst practical and affordable for the railway to maintain and operate
Actually the longest-established and apparently successful (pre-Covid) vary in length and journey time considerably, from 5 miles/25min (KWVR...) to an hour and more (SVR, NYMR....).
Is another factor the distance from the main traffic source?
BTW I agree that the WHR - an outlier by some miles anyway - is too long for most people. Trouble is, it's lovely.
Is another factor the distance from the main traffic source?
BTW I agree that the WHR - an outlier by some miles anyway - is too long for most people. Trouble is, it's lovely.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So's doing half of it, and a wander round Beddgelert is quite pleasant. I wouldn't suggest they did away with the through service, though, but they probably aren't going to be increasing it.
That doesn't matter really because I'd guess that the originating custom is split fairly evenly between Porthmadog and Caernarfon. A long line which ran from a popular town or tourist centre into the middle of nowhere (rather than just through it) would be a different matter.
LickeyIncliner
Member
It must help to attract a wider range of passengers (and hence more revenue) if the place at the other end appeals to a wide range of people, not just heritage railway enthusiasts. The North Norfolk from Holt into Sheringham fits that bill very well in summer - a rare example of a steam-hauled park-and ride service...
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 6,095
Regardless of the length, I want a gradient so that the locos have to do some work in one direction.
Ideally, the length should be sufficient to buy and drink a pint between departure and arrival. Say 8-10 miles. While I love the KWVR (local bias) it would be great if the distances between the stations could be doubled.
Ideally, the length should be sufficient to buy and drink a pint between departure and arrival. Say 8-10 miles. While I love the KWVR (local bias) it would be great if the distances between the stations could be doubled.
It isn't. It's biased towards the Porthmadog end. That's why they sometimes offer two Aberglaslyn trips per day, but only one Gelert Explorer
I think there are two answers to this
For enthusiasts probably the longer the better
For normals, especially those with kids, probably half an hour each way. Any more than that and they get bored, because for them most of the excitement comes when they’re off the train - looking at the fire / in the cab, eating and drinking, seeing other trains, watching the loco run round etc.
For enthusiasts probably the longer the better
For normals, especially those with kids, probably half an hour each way. Any more than that and they get bored, because for them most of the excitement comes when they’re off the train - looking at the fire / in the cab, eating and drinking, seeing other trains, watching the loco run round etc.
kje7812
Member
It depends what there is there. If there isn't much of interest in the intermediate stations, then probably the 5-7 mile range is fair. If there's a variety of things to do at multiple stations, then I think you can get away with longer, as you have more options for passenger flows.
It's amazing how quickly kids can get bored/restless. I remember some kids complaining to their dad on the South Devon about the length, and saw a kid the other week get very restless travel from Oxenhope to Oakworth.
It's amazing how quickly kids can get bored/restless. I remember some kids complaining to their dad on the South Devon about the length, and saw a kid the other week get very restless travel from Oxenhope to Oakworth.
John Luxton
Established Member
But do all kids get bored? Do they all need a short trip?
I recall being taken on trips by car and train, could be as far as Liverpool to Penzance back in the pre full motorway days of the 1960s and I never got bored.
I just enjoyed the whole travel experience. I was never an "are we nearly there?" child.
It might be because my parents / grand parents etc took the effort to interest me in the areas I passed through and things I saw.
Stopping off at interesting places enroute for a look.
Much of my hobby interest in transport and industrial history probably wouldn't have happened if my parents hadn't made the effort. They were not hobby people themselves but made a lot of effort to keep me engaged.
I do find it odd that children need to be provided for by play areas on ferries, or playgrounds at certain heritage railway stations. I never needed them the view out of the window was enough.
I have been on heritage railways in recent years when whole families are buried in their mobile phones and I am thinking well why didn't you stay at home?? What are you gaining from this experience?
I recall being taken on trips by car and train, could be as far as Liverpool to Penzance back in the pre full motorway days of the 1960s and I never got bored.
I just enjoyed the whole travel experience. I was never an "are we nearly there?" child.
It might be because my parents / grand parents etc took the effort to interest me in the areas I passed through and things I saw.
Stopping off at interesting places enroute for a look.
Much of my hobby interest in transport and industrial history probably wouldn't have happened if my parents hadn't made the effort. They were not hobby people themselves but made a lot of effort to keep me engaged.
I do find it odd that children need to be provided for by play areas on ferries, or playgrounds at certain heritage railway stations. I never needed them the view out of the window was enough.
I have been on heritage railways in recent years when whole families are buried in their mobile phones and I am thinking well why didn't you stay at home?? What are you gaining from this experience?
My kids definitely get bored as they're not interested in railways (although they're interested in seeing how my n-gauge layout develops). It's a lot of effort these days to keep them off electronic devices and engaged with something different. This is probably why daddy doesn't get to do many heritage railways! Despite living in the southeast I've only been to Bluebell and Spa Valley in the area even though I have several times been right next to K&ESR or Watercress for one reason or another.
12LDA28C
Established Member
That's quite a subjective view and it all rather depends on what you're looking for on a 'heritage' or 'preserved' railway, personally I wouldn't describe the Bucks Railway Centre as such because whilst there are various things of interest to do on site, you don't really travel anywhere once there as they have only just over 1/4 mile of track. Not one for the haulage connoisseurs then. Of note is that there are no longer shuttles available from Aylesbury either - I believe it's now vintage buses used which might appeal to some people, I'm not one of them.
I would certainly prefer to travel from point A to point B and ideally there would be something of interest at each end of the line, at the very least. Ten miles is a good minimum length in my opinion.
Yes the Aylesbury shuttles don't run anymore, for quite a while now, although to the railway centre from Aylesbury is a long siding as has been truncated at Quainton in connection with HS2.
12LDA28C
Established Member
Indeed although the rail shuttles finished several years before the line was truncated. Not really a siding - still a main line used by many freight trains for HS2 construction.
Surely they're all subjective views? There cannot be a definitive answer to the question posed surely? I posted my view on the matter and that's either you need a decent length journey (somewhere around 40 odd minutes each way) or if you're going to only have a very short run it will need to have some sort of very interesting attraction at the other (or either) end.
Well I've not been there since 2017 and live the best part of 200 miles away so I think I can be forgiven for not having the most up to date knowledge on the arrangements
What is optimum for the visitor and the operator may not be the same. The Severn Valley is 16 miles and the Watercress Line 10 miles while the online adult day ticket prices are currently £25.00/£27.50 and £23.50 then on the day £27 and £32 respectively. Both have a town at both ends to break the day and and a railway related place of interest between to break the journey so can be a full day out. Hence work well for both a family day out and enthusiast interest. For the operator the former has 60% more miles of track and train running cost for only around 20% more income.
Llangollen too is 10 miles but there is relatively little to do along the line so for most well short of a full day out for the £25 day ticket. The only real way to extend the day is two return trips.
Like the OP unless very close, passing or primarily visiting somewhere else I can not summon the enthusiasm for a short line.
Llangollen too is 10 miles but there is relatively little to do along the line so for most well short of a full day out for the £25 day ticket. The only real way to extend the day is two return trips.
Like the OP unless very close, passing or primarily visiting somewhere else I can not summon the enthusiasm for a short line.
Paul Hitchcock
Member
- Joined
- 13 Sep 2018
- Messages
- 287
The quality offered is a vital component. Twenty miles in a scruffy carriage is unlikely to appeal to the general public
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 6,095
Twenty miles in a carriage full of scruffy cranks even less so!
I was thinking about this in relation to proposals for tram trains between Bury and Rochdale. The latest proposal is for single track parallel to East Lancashire Railway. Even if this is viable option for health and safety, I am not convinced it would be the best option for ELR. Bury to Rawtenstall is a about ten miles and a 40 minute journey. That sounds optimal and tram trains between Bury and Rochdale would still allow ELR to move rolling stock to and from the national rail network at night. It is different if the alternative is closing reopened track.
Dave S 56F
Member
Only thing is though travelling by service train from the north of the U.K. to N.N.R. Sheringham is not easy I've once done a steam gala back in April 2022 there travelled from Leeds on the ex L.N.E.R. 05:05am to Peterborough had to change at Ely and through to Norwich with only 5 mins to switch on the greater anglia service to Sheringham and dident arrive while 11am. so poor rail connections in my opinion if you travel from the North ok though if you come up from London cos you can go via Ipswich or or Cambridge. But yes a decent heritage railway with nice ex G.E.R. L.M.S. and B.R. locos and teak coaches and very nice ex M.G.N.R. stations and a lovely view of the Norfolk coast while chugging along to Holt or vice to Shringham for 5.5 miles
Last edited:
paul1609
Established Member
It doesn't really equate that a 60% increase in distance equates to a 60% increase in costs. When we extended the K &ESR from Northiam to Bodiam in 2000 distance increased from 7 to 10 miles in each direction but costs only increased by around 15%. Doing 3 miles more on each single trip doesn't increase the locomotive costs by that much because you still need to remove the boiler after 10 years for inspection to get a new boiler cert. Even stuff like coal consumption doesn't increase anything like the distance travelled on a steam engine because its largely related to thermal cycling stuff like steam raising in the morning and to leave the first station on a trip.
Stuff like PW costs would increase proportionally to the length of line but even then there are economies of scale in operating a 10 mile line instead of a 7.
Paul Hitchcock
Member
- Joined
- 13 Sep 2018
- Messages
- 287
Don't forget that with a maximum of 25mph an increase in mileage has an impact on the number of return journeys that a set of carriages can make each day.
paul1609
Established Member
Indeed but I struggle to think of a heritage railway where the size (and cost) of the carriage fleet is defined by a normal operation day. It's certainly not true for any of the Southern group.
In my railways case it wouldn't even be efficient to run all trains with a uniform carriage set as the passenger loading varies during the day. Ironically one of the advantages of our current extension is that it will even up passenger flow on the existing service with only a moderate increase in costs.
Paul Hitchcock
Member
- Joined
- 13 Sep 2018
- Messages
- 287
Sadly there is more to it than that. There comes a time when "extension fever" produces the need to employ more stock simply to retain departure frequencies.
paul1609
Established Member
Would you care to provide an example of where a railway has expanded it's coaching fleet to accommodate an extended line?
At my railway the size of the fleet is set to meet special and commercial events (Thomas, Santa Pullman Dining etc. ) many of which don't operate the full length of the line and "museum" factors in accordance with our charitable aims.
- Status