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What is the point of Old Oak Common?

Railwaysceptic

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The travelator would be about 600 metres long, and would take 13 minutes to ride. It's more than double the rail distance from Leicester Square to Covent Garden, for instance. Most of the area within walking distance of Mitre Bridge is either cemetery or common, so there would be few walk-ups. Extra platforms at Willesden Junction with a people mover to OOC makes more sense.
I don't know how you've arrived at that conclusion. Old Oak Common Station will have very long platforms to cater for HS2 trains. The eastern end of those platforms will be pretty close to the West London Line, so moving by travellator will not take several minutes. The one at Gatwick Airport provides an indication of how quick it would be.
 
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The Planner

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Platform numbers on the NR side start at 1 for the Down services, with 5 - 8 for Elizabeth/Relief lines.
 

Basil Jet

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I don't know how you've arrived at that conclusion. Old Oak Common Station will have very long platforms to cater for HS2 trains. The eastern end of those platforms will be pretty close to the West London Line, so moving by travellator will not take several minutes. The one at Gatwick Airport provides an indication of how quick it would be.
hs2-old-oak-common-elizabeth-line-map.jpeg

On closer examination it is nearer 500m to the near end of OOC, and a travelator would take over 8 minutes. I stick by the rest of my message.
 

MarkyT

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I don't know how you've arrived at that conclusion. Old Oak Common Station will have very long platforms to cater for HS2 trains. The eastern end of those platforms will be pretty close to the West London Line, so moving by travellator will not take several minutes. The one at Gatwick Airport provides an indication of how quick it would be.
While the east end of the HS2 platforms might be close, the normal access to them and the GWR/EL platforms will be via the concourse at the approximate midpoint of the complex. Establishing a second separate gateline, ticket sales facility etc at the far end of the HS2 platforms isn't likely just for the traffic on offer from notional Mitre Bridge or Hythe Road Overground stations. For only small numbers of passengers, the ongoing maintenance costs of a travelator would be challenging too.
 
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AlbertBeale

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I don't know how you've arrived at that conclusion. Old Oak Common Station will have very long platforms to cater for HS2 trains. The eastern end of those platforms will be pretty close to the West London Line, so moving by travellator will not take several minutes. The one at Gatwick Airport provides an indication of how quick it would be.

Presumably connections wouldn't be from platform ends, but via a concourse situated more centrally. So "as the crow flies" distances between station extremities might not be the best measure.
 

Railwaysceptic

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While the east end of the HS2 platforms might be close, the normal access to them and the GWR/EL platforms will be via the concourse at the approximate midpoint of the complex. Establishing a second separate gateline, ticket sales facility etc at the far end of the HS2 platforms isn't likely just for the traffic on offer from notional Mitre Bridge or Hythe Road Overground stations. For only small numbers of passengers, the ongoing maintenance costs of a travelator would be challenging too.
A new southern entrance and exit was provided at Blackfriars Station when that was rebuilt. A link has now been provided between Hackney Central and Hackney Downs. There is no good reason why something similar should not be arranged for a new station which will undoubtedly become a major public transport hub. In Edmonton in north London Angel Road Station was closed and Meridian Water opened instead to improve access to public transport.

I've just been watching a YouTube video about Old Oak Common Station which boasts about how it will provide superb connectivity with other parts of the country. There was no mention of Shepherds Bush, Clapham Junction, Wembley, Harrow, Wimbledon or Richmond.

Presumably connections wouldn't be from platform ends, but via a concourse situated more centrally. So "as the crow flies" distances between station extremities might not be the best measure.
Well, yes, but the point I was rebutting was that a similar moving walkway connection to Willesden Junction would be more suitable.

Incidentally the Grand Union Canal flanks the GW main line and the Old Oak Common site. An able bodied man walking at 4 mph would take about five minutes from Scrubbs Lane to being alongside the station site. Using a moving walkway would require less than half that.
 
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The Ham

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I've just been watching a YouTube video about Old Oak Common Station which boasts about how it will provide superb connectivity with other parts of the country. There was no mention of Shepherds Bush, Clapham Junction, Wembley, Harrow, Wimbledon or Richmond

It depends on the focus. For example if you are trying to show that it connects with the country as a whole you'd say OOC links to London, Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth, etc. However would probably not list how it's linked to lots of places within Greater London, even if mention of Heathrow, Paddington and Euston was made.

If the Southern Approach to Heathrow gets built you could additionally add Woking, Guildford, Farnborough and Basingstoke to the list of direct stations served and a while ready if other places with just one change of service.
 

Basil Jet

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It depends on the focus. For example if you are trying to show that it connects with the country as a whole you'd say OOC links to London, Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth, etc. However would probably not list how it's linked to lots of places within Greater London, even if mention of Heathrow, Paddington and Euston was made.
Both Euston and Paddington (mainline) are glaringly missing from the list of places served, which suggests that only the Elizabeth Line will connect to the east, faster trains being sd only (and presumably pu only from the east).
 

Railwaysceptic

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hs2-old-oak-common-elizabeth-line-map.jpeg

On closer examination it is nearer 500m to the near end of OOC, and a travelator would take over 8 minutes. I stick by the rest of my message.
I don't know why you stick with the rest of your previous message. The map you've provided shows very clearly that the distance between OOC and Willesden Junction is about twice that between the eastern end of OOC and the West London Line. Walking along the canal tow path from Scrubs Lane to where the canal veers north would take most people about five minutes. I no longer walk quickly but I'll try it in the next few days and time myself. A travellator will do it in less time.
 

MarkyT

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A new southern entrance and exit was provided at Blackfriars Station when that was rebuilt. A link has now been provided between Hackney Central and Hackney Downs. There is no good reason why something similar should not be arranged for a new station which will undoubtedly become a major public transport hub. In Edmonton in north London Angel Road Station was closed and Meridian Water opened instead to improve access to public transport.
The Hackney link doesn't have a moving walkway though. Part of the problem around OOC is the large area of industrial land alongside Hythe Road (Cargiant etc), not currently being redeveloped. In addition to any connectional function, a Mitre bridge or Hythe Road station would be serving low density employment only, and a new south entrance at Willesden Junction could serve much of the same area in the event of redevelopment.
I've just been watching a YouTube video about Old Oak Common Station which boasts about how it will provide superb connectivity with other parts of the country. There was no mention of Shepherds Bush, Clapham Junction, Wembley, Harrow, Wimbledon or Richmond.
I agree this a large chunk of connectivity missing. With the new bus hub at OOC There'll probably be routes serving some of the potential destinations.
Well, yes, but the point I was rebutting was that a similar moving walkway connection to Willesden Junction would be more suitable.

Incidentally the Grand Union Canal flanks the GW main line and the Old Oak Common site. An able bodied man walking at 4 mph would take about five minutes from Scrubbs Lane to being alongside the station site. Using a moving walkway would require less than half that.
I'm all for moving walkways and APM shuttles where there's sufficient demand, between major termini such as St Pancras and Euston. I don't think there will be at Mitre Bridge/Hythe Road.

I think the answer to West London Line connectivity is to reroute at least some WLL services via Willesden Junction low level to terminate at Old Oak Common Lane. Additionally, a new low-level platform for these might be provided on the south side of the fasts at Willesden Jn, with a footbridge linking across the WCML tracks to the high level platforms. There's also potential to link the industrial area to the south to Willesden Junction station with a new entrance if that eventually gets redeveloped. The Southern service might also serve the low-level platform. Maybe the Southern paths could be subsumed into the LO service and also diverted to OOC Lane. A total of 8tph LO on the WLL might alternate to terminate at OOC or Stratford so (say) 4tph Clapham Junction to Stratford and 4tph OOC to Croydon. As to a new station on the WLL itself, I think a more useful site is a little further south, convenient for Hammersmith Hospital (and the prison next door!).
 

Meerkat

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The Hackney link doesn't have a moving walkway though. Part of the problem around OOC is the large area of industrial land alongside Hythe Road (Cargiant etc), not currently being redeveloped. In addition to any connectional function, a Mitre bridge or Hythe Road station would be serving low density employment only, and a new south entrance at Willesden Junction could serve much of the same area in the event of redevelopment.

I agree this a large chunk of connectivity missing. With the new bus hub at OOC There'll probably be routes serving some of the potential destinations.

I'm all for moving walkways and APM shuttles where there's sufficient demand, between major termini such as St Pancras and Euston. I don't think there will be at Mitre Bridge/Hythe Road.

I think the answer to West London Line connectivity is to reroute at least some WLL services via Willesden Junction low level to terminate at Old Oak Common Lane. Additionally, a new low-level platform for these might be provided on the south side of the fasts at Willesden Jn, with a footbridge linking across the WCML tracks to the high level platforms. There's also potential to link the industrial area to the south to Willesden Junction station with a new entrance if that eventually gets redeveloped. The Southern service might also serve the low-level platform. Maybe the Southern paths could be subsumed into the LO service and also diverted to OOC Lane. A total of 8tph LO on the WLL might alternate to terminate at OOC or Stratford so (say) 4tph Clapham Junction to Stratford and 4tph OOC to Croydon. As to a new station on the WLL itself, I think a more useful site is a little further south, convenient for Hammersmith Hospital (and the prison next door!).
Or just build a people mover between Willesden Junction, OOC, and North Acton stations…..
 

MarkyT

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Or just build a people mover between Willesden Junction, OOC, and North Acton stations…..
Maybe as well, with platforms on all WCML lines! I still support diverting some WLLs via low level to OOC Lane, mainly because increasing services on the WLL can't all go on the NLL along with the Richmonds so they need a turnback, suitable tracks lead right to where LO plans its Old Oak Common Lane station, and all trains can still serve Willesden Junction via my low level platform. Serving OOCL will also allow future connections between WLL and West London Orbital on the Dudding Hill line, and the large bus terminal planned between the LO and main concourses. Of course, the OOC - OOCL pedestrian link (about 300m) could benefit from a moving walkway along at least part of its length!
 

Topological

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Or just build a people mover between Willesden Junction, OOC, and North Acton stations…..
Connecting Willesden Junction with OOC is what I keep coming back to every time I see that map.

Depending on the long-term development plans for the area, the direct link may have valuable intermediate points on it for people in the new developments to join/exit.
 

MarkyT

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Connecting Willesden Junction with OOC is what I keep coming back to every time I see that map.

Depending on the long-term development plans for the area, the direct link may have valuable intermediate points on it for people in the new developments to join/exit.
With the area set to become a major activity hub similar to Docklands or Stratford in a future Tokyo-like polycentric London, I think stopping all residual WCML traffic at Willesden may be highly desirable once the fastest long-distance trains have relocated to HS2 (also with a stop nearby!). Connectional possibilities then multiply and an APM link starts to look interesting. In an interterminal operation like this, the emphasis has to be on speed so the experience should be similar to riding in a lift. I'm not discounting intermediate 'floors' (stops) but there shouldn't be too many of them to interfere with the primary role of interchange.
 

The Ham

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With the area set to become a major activity hub similar to Docklands or Stratford in a future Tokyo-like polycentric London, I think stopping all residual WCML traffic at Willesden may be highly desirable once the fastest long-distance trains have relocated to HS2 (also with a stop nearby!). Connectional possibilities then multiply and an APM link starts to look interesting. In an interterminal operation like this, the emphasis has to be on speed so the experience should be similar to riding in a lift. I'm not discounting intermediate 'floors' (stops) but there shouldn't be too many of them to interfere with the primary role of interchange.

An interesting suggestion, would certainly aid with travel between (say) Reading and Milton Keynes (probably not the best example given East West could also aid with this pairing, but it highlights the point).
 

Topological

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With the area set to become a major activity hub similar to Docklands or Stratford in a future Tokyo-like polycentric London, I think stopping all residual WCML traffic at Willesden may be highly desirable once the fastest long-distance trains have relocated to HS2 (also with a stop nearby!). Connectional possibilities then multiply and an APM link starts to look interesting. In an interterminal operation like this, the emphasis has to be on speed so the experience should be similar to riding in a lift. I'm not discounting intermediate 'floors' (stops) but there shouldn't be too many of them to interfere with the primary role of interchange.

An interesting suggestion, would certainly aid with travel between (say) Reading and Milton Keynes (probably not the best example given East West could also aid with this pairing, but it highlights the point).

Really we should just get it built and not worry about any new stations...

More likely they will make a free minibus, which is funded for a year and therefore scrapped before anyone even realises it exists.
 

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