What should be done to improve road safety?

[Bletchleyite]

The irony of most of this sort of pavement parking is that it doesn't make enough space for two lanes of traffic and so the car could simply have parked on the road without any effect at all on the disruption it caused by being there for drivers, but avoiding the disruption to pedestrians.

 

[judethegreat]

A lot of societal problems at the moment are being caused by underpolicing. Indeed in most cases no policing at all.

But would be so much better if attitudes were different, rather than resort to telling people what to do. But that may take decades, or even centuries, as it's taken that long to get where we are now...

The irony of most of this sort of pavement parking is that it doesn't make enough space for two lanes of traffic and so the car could simply have parked on the road without any effect at all on the disruption it caused by being there for drivers, but avoiding the disruption to pedestrians.

Don't want to risk their car getting scraped*, or "fire engines need to get through"...

*They seem to forget most pedestrians have keys in their pockets though... I must stress i am not advocating that kind of behaviour one single bit, but have accidentally knocked, not broken, a few wing mirrors over the years...

People have more respect for those bigger or more powerful than themselves, when it should (if anything) be the other way around. Not just with this matter...

 

[GusB]

As this is now a general thread one thing I'd do is change the National Speed Limit thus:

Roads without a continuous marked centreline e.g. country lanes: 40mph (I could be swayed to 30)

I disagree with this. You're looking to increase journey times in many rural areas when it's simply not necessary to do so. I know of a few roads where there's no centre line, but it's perfectly safe to drive faster than 40mph. Not all are narrow country lanes with hegderows with poor visibility and some of them are actually wide enough for two cars to pass.

Single carriageway roads with a marked centreline: 50mph

Again, nope. There are plenty of single-carriageway A- and B-roads that are of a decent enough standard to permit driving at 60mph.

There are places that pose a bit more of a hazard, and in many cases the local authority has recognised this and imposed a lower speed limit anyway.

 

[cb a1]

Here it's not the width, so much as the depth of the passing places, something like a mini size car would be underwater.

4X4 is needed for the Winter, we don't have Gritters or Snow Ploughs, just neighbours with Tractors to help.

What's always puzzled me with this take is what people did back in the day. In the 70s and 80s, my Dad was a rep for first an agri-chemical business then an animal feed company. He was out on the road 48 weeks of the year across covering an area which included the Yorkshire Dales, North York Moors and Lake District. He started with a Morris Minor (can only just remember that) followed by Hillman Hunters then it was Ford Cortinas. Used to drive up to 1000 miles a week; result was a new car every 18 months or so as the trigger was hitting 70,000 miles.

I don't believe that road were ploughed or gritted any better back in those days. How on earth did he manage to do his job? Alas, he's no longer with us for me to ask.

 

[75A]

Here it was just Land rovers or Tractors.

 

[renegademaster]

Do you see yourself as say a F-35 or Typhoon, or maybe an Airbus / Boeing pilot then ?

You see, in many ways, you exemplify a paradox when it comes to safety....the development of safety features in vehicles allied to technology tends to make drivers over reliant on the basics....such as the Mk 1 eyeball and actually driving the car, not sitting in, pushing buttons as "the car does everything ".

One thing that would help safety is....Education. They may seem antiquated in terms of speech, but, many of those old Public Information films could, and should, be reinstated. Preferably with some graphic images as to what happens to the human body when stupidity overcomes safe driving practices.

Speed is a contributory factor but really, there's no need for speed limiters as we all have one built in....called our right foot.

Motorways are comparatively safe, apart from (not so) smart sections with no hard shoulder...these do concern me when I'm driving on them. The worst tend to be rural A and B roads, rarely policed, which some people assume are there personal racing tracks.

Germany, quite rightly, has been mentioned. German traffic laws are absolute, there's no abiguity....STOP means STOP. not casually trundle onto the crossing road and the Priority road designation is a positive benefit in this respect.

The principal difference between the UK and Germany is cultural allied to training drivers.

Germany has higher per capita road death rate than us. Not every blade of grass is greener on the European side

 

[Krokodil]

They make a lot of sense when it's winter and the roads aren't gritted or when it's thrown it down and they're flooded.

A BMW X5 on summer road tyres (how many people in the UK own a set of winter tyres?) won't be any more use than the mini.

 

[156421]

Germany has higher per capita road death rate than us. Not every blade of grass is greener on the European side

Never thought I'd see the day on this forum that somebody points out (quite correctly) the UK is doing better at something, compared to ANY other country.

 

[Zamracene749]

How many times has this ever happened to anyone in the real world, on a motorway?

To me, more than once. Overtaking a 4WD when (presumably) a massive bearing failure occurred. I actually saw the whole wheel come off alongside me and the front of his/her car drop, already alongside, I floored it to get out of the way. I could of course have slammed the anchors on, leaving myself in the way of the subsequent snaking stop they had to make. Many times when overtaking HGVs, see em start to drift (microsleeps no doubt), accelerate the hell out the way and let the rumble of th ecats eyes wake em back up-Or stay alongside and get jurned to jam on the Armco in the central res. Or slam on the brakes and cause domino effect carnage behind you.
Road safety involves so so much more than speed limits. Routine testing of drivers, in particular of response times and eyesight, more actual traffic police rather than pointless cameras and lazy speed limits etc would in my mind do far more to reduce the death toll.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A BMW X5 on summer road tyres (how many people in the UK own a set of winter tyres?) won't be any more use than the mini.

That's completely untrue. Winter tyres are better than summer tyres, but a BMW X5 on summer tyres will out-grip (for acceleration) a Mini, in particular if one wheel is spinning - 4x4s have features like difflock and limited slip diffs that normal cars don't.

It's indeed true that a 4x4 doesn't *stop* any better than a regular car, which is why you sometimes see them in ditches. But if you put one wheel of your Mini in the mud, that wheel will just spin and you'll have to push it out.

Of course not all SUVs are 4x4s - the Kuga is just a normal 2x4 car with a bodykit - but the more expensive ones are.

To me, more than once. Overtaking a 4WD when (presumably) a massive bearing failure occurred. I actually saw the whole wheel come off alongside me and the front of his/her car drop, already alongside, I floored it to get out of the way. I could of course have slammed the anchors on, leaving myself in the way of the subsequent snaking stop they had to make. Many times when overtaking HGVs, see em start to drift (microsleeps no doubt), accelerate the hell out the way and let the rumble of th ecats eyes wake em back up-Or stay alongside and get jurned to jam on the Armco in the central res. Or slam on the brakes and cause domino effect carnage behind you.

On the occasions when I have had someone drift towards me, leaning on the horn has always resolved the issue far more quickly than trying to out-accelerate them (though if possible I'd generally do both).

 

[156421]

To me, more than once. Overtaking a 4WD when (presumably) a massive bearing failure occurred. I actually saw the whole wheel come off alongside me and the front of his/her car drop, already alongside, I floored it to get out of the way. I could of course have slammed the anchors on, leaving myself in the way of the subsequent snaking stop they had to make. Many times when overtaking HGVs, see em start to drift (microsleeps no doubt), accelerate the hell out the way and let the rumble of th ecats eyes wake em back up-Or stay alongside and get jurned to jam on the Armco in the central res. Or slam on the brakes and cause domino effect carnage behind you.
Road safety involves so so much more than speed limits. Routine testing of drivers, in particular of response times and eyesight, more actual traffic police rather than pointless cameras and lazy speed limits etc would in my mind do far more to reduce the death toll.

could be tyre failures rather than falling asleep at the wheel

 

[Bletchleyite]

I certainly think the near-total loss of motorway policing "on the ground" due to the move from police to civilian traffic officers has been negative - there's nobody to e.g. pull over tailgaters and middle lane hogs.

Cameras are all very well but some things need enforcing in person.

 

[156421]

I certainly think the near-total loss of motorway policing "on the ground" due to the move from police to civilian traffic officers has been negative - there's nobody to e.g. pull over tailgaters and middle lane hogs.

Cameras are all very well but some things need enforcing in person.

I seldom (thankfully) have to do long distance (which therefore includes, even though it is the easiest driving ever, motorway) driving (although such driving has increased thanks to railroad strikes thanks to greed of ASLEF/RMT), have taken to self-policing such idiots as and when they arise, i.e. if they are about to pin me being a HGV, I'll just pull out in front and accelerate, leaving them to eat my exhaust fumes and hopefully but improbably learn a lesson. But it is a shame that once again the basic law isn't being properly enforced by the relevant authorities. Likewise so many brake lights or other such lights out, cars with no licence plates, etc., all going unpunished on a daily basis.

 

[Krokodil]

It's indeed true that a 4x4 doesn't *stop* any better than a regular car, which is why you sometimes see them in ditches.

Which is entirely my point. Neither can they corner any better. During a winter a few years ago there were BMW (other manufacturers are available) drivers offering to drive nurses to work because they had 4x4s. Inevitably many of them ended up in ditches. Such cars are Chelsea tractors, designed for taking the kids on school runs, not for off-road work. You can tell that they never go off-road because their white paint is immaculate. Real farmers don't drive them, they've got a Toyota Hilux or a Defender on suitable tyres.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is entirely my point. Neither can they corner any better. During a winter a few years ago there were BMW (other manufacturers are available) drivers offering to drive nurses to work because they had 4x4s. Inevitably many of them ended up in ditches. Such cars are Chelsea tractors, designed for taking the kids on school runs, not for off-road work. You can tell that they never go off-road because their white paint is immaculate. Real farmers don't drive them, they've got a Toyota Hilux or a Defender on suitable tyres.

A Range Rover is as capable as a Defender. It might never go off road, but it's certainly designed to do so. Indeed, with all the electronics it's easier to use it in that way than a classic Defender which is entirely manual in operation and requires you to know what you're doing, e.g. when to engage difflock.

With road tyres of course it's not as capable as with big chunky off-road ones, but everything's a compromise; when I had a Defender I had it on road tyres.

 

[Krokodil]

A Range Rover is as capable as a Defender. It might never go off road, but it's certainly designed to do so. Indeed, with all the electronics it's easier to use it in that way than a classic Defender which is entirely manual in operation and requires you to know what you're doing, e.g. when to engage difflock.

With road tyres of course it's not as capable as with big chunky off-road ones, but everything's a compromise; when I had a Defender I had it on road tyres.

How about the spotless BMW X5? The one which is apparently "essential" because the owner lives "very rurally" (a market town in Surrey).

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about the spotless BMW X5? The one which is apparently "essential" because the owner lives "very rurally" (a market town in Surrey).

The X5 is a capable vehicle even if not normally used as such.

 

[Zamracene749]

could be tyre failures rather than falling asleep at the wheel

Nah- I'm on about slow drifts. My old man was an HGV driver, I spent hundreds of thousands of miles up front with him, and have seen more than a few blow outs. This was before the days of 'super singles', tyres are a many times better now than they were in those days, but, sadly, despite electronic tachos etc driving hours and conditions aren't.

 

[Falcon1200]

So people on a motorway wouldn't be able to get a little boost to get themselves out of trouble or complete a manoeuvre safer

Better to avoid making a manoeuvre that might require accelerating above the speed limit in the first place.

How many times has this ever happened to anyone in the real world, on a motorway?

Never, ever! What I have experienced however is driving at 70mph in the left hand lane, being overtaken by vehicles in the middle lane (obviously exceeding the speed limit) while those vehicles are themselves being overtaken by lunatics in the right hand lane. Also, pulling out into the right hand lane to overtake, having seen nothing coming up behind anywhere near, only for another lunatic to be right behind in seconds.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Not so sure. It would be seen as an attack on the motorist, be argued as bringing the country to a halt, perhaps make rail more competitive still, and lose a party votes when they all want to bow to the wants of the motorist.

In an ideal world, you'd have driving standards like that of Germany where you could ditch the limit on the safest roads (I know there are still advisory limits) but our driving standards are terrible and it's usually the variance of speed from one vehicle to the next that causes the most danger. Germans have better lane discipline by miles, which I can't see we ever could.

Driver safety aids can only help so much. Indeed, they're probably making some motorists more dangerous.

I don’t think that’s a good idea. I've seen YouTube videos of crashes on the autobahn, where you have one car in the fast lane travelling at 200 kph and another car in the slow lane travelling at 100 kph pulls out into the fast lane in front of the car going 200 kph, causing that car to have to slam on the brakes.

A typical knee jerk reaction from someone that lives in a City.

Here in rural Ireland a SUV is vital owing to the very narrow and poorly maintained roads.

We have no public transport so a car is vital.

As an SUV is quite wide, wouldn’t that make it worse for travelling on very narrow roads?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an SUV is quite wide, wouldn’t that make it worse for travelling on very narrow roads?

All cars are quite wide. It's because of side-impact protection, which is a good thing. Unless we're going to move to cars with only one seat across, that's just to be accepted and spaces need to be made wider.

That said, Italians seem to like the Fiat Panda 4x4 - technically an SUV?

 

[yoyothehobo]

I would say there is no issue really with any speed limits on our roads, the biggest problem is drivers and there attention or care.

Too many times i have been stuck behind people dawdling along country roads at 40mph in a national speed limit, then continue to drive at 40mph through a 30 zone in a small village. The two speed limits are perfectly acceptable, but the attention is not there.

There is also a consideration that when drivers think a speed limit is arbitrarily low, then they will completely ignore it. The East Lancs Road (A580) has sections that were once 70mph, they are dual carriageway with a central barrier, there is now also a bus lane making the road appear wider still. The speed limit on this road is signed at 40mph. No one adheres to this speed limit, i daresay very few are travelling under 50mph. The 50mph sections of this road are generally treated as 60mph and the 60mph as NSL.

 

[75A]

I don’t think that’s a good idea. I've seen YouTube videos of crashes on the autobahn, where you have one car in the fast lane travelling at 200 kph and another car in the slow lane travelling at 100 kph pulls out into the fast lane in front of the car going 200 kph, causing that car to have to slam on the brakes.

As an SUV is quite wide, wouldn’t that make it worse for travelling on very narrow roads?

Indeed, wing mirrors touch hedges on both sides.

 

[jfowkes]

I would say there is no issue really with any speed limits on our roads, the biggest problem is drivers and there attention or care.

Too many times i have been stuck behind people dawdling along country roads at 40mph in a national speed limit, then continue to drive at 40mph through a 30 zone in a small village. The two speed limits are perfectly acceptable, but the attention is not there.

Road design would go a long way here. In 30mph and lower zones, it should be basically impossible to speed, or at least really obvious that you are speeding due to physical design of the road.

This is a very good video on how speed limits are enforced by road design, not by signage and cameras.

 

[jon0844]

I don’t think that’s a good idea. I've seen YouTube videos of crashes on the autobahn, where you have one car in the fast lane travelling at 200 kph and another car in the slow lane travelling at 100 kph pulls out into the fast lane in front of the car going 200 kph, causing that car to have to slam on the brakes.

That's very rare because people in Germany know that cars are doing 200+ kph in lane two (most autobahns only being two lanes), but at the same time, drivers in lane two are very good at slowing when they can see a car approaching a lorry and assuming they might signal to overtake - so there's no road rage or panic as you'd get here. When you have a fast car and no limit, you quite like the need to slow down and floor it afterwards.

Of course you get bad drivers (there obviously are accidents in Germany!) and foreign vehicles that aren't so well trained, but the speeds are extremely high and could never work here. For one, you'd have someone sit in lane two or three and refuse to let anyone pass and start brake testing anyone that approached.

 

[typefish]

All of equal priority:

- Remove speed limits (where safe) on motorways, to be replaced with a recommended speed
- Reintroduce the rollout of smart motorways, tied into the above
- Put actual money into genuinely usable active travel provisions (cycling infrastructure is horrible in the UK)
- Improve public transport provisions within local communities

Basically, the best way to improve road safety within the UK is to reduce the reliance of cars within urban areas.

Of course you get bad drivers (there obviously are accidents in Germany!) and foreign vehicles that aren't so well trained, but the speeds are extremely high and could never work here. For one, you'd have someone sit in lane two or three and refuse to let anyone pass and start brake testing anyone that approached.

Those speeds can work here in the UK. And no, that happens in Germany too, much to my frustration. If anything, drivers in Germany feel more entitled than those in the UK, we're just apathetic

 

[jon0844]

We can't manage lane discipline with three lanes. I think we're too far gone.

I will admit to not driving in Germany for 10 years so maybe their standards are falling too, which would be very sad but perhaps not surprising.