What should be done with Heathrow Express once Old Oak Common opens? And how could the paths be best used?

[Farnborough]

Also, a passenger travelling from Farnborough to Old Oak Common with a ticket of (say) £16 would reduce that passenger count by 2.

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of going through to OOC... how many people will need that connection? LHR is the destination, not a via.

IMHO a more useful pathing would be BSK - FBM - WOK - T5 - T2/3 - T4 (terminate)

This could also replace the Lizzie Line between T2/3 and T4, allowing them to go to T5.


And in the eventual arrival of CrossRail2, I'd include the Woking stoppers (even if they still go through to Waterloo!)

 

[SynthD]

There will be passengers in the Basingstoke to Staines area who want OOC and Paddington and their connections. The usefulness of going through is that the demand from the north is strong, and the two can be combined. Woking to OOC on a HEx without HEx premium pricing would be popular, and achievable if Heathrow pay the price for expansion.

 

[JonathanH]

Any plans for a third runway should really involve also building both the southern and western rail links to Heathrow in my view, which would then also support continued use of HeX.

The question remains as to whether both the southern and western links are deliverable with solely private funding, and what the fares would be if Heathrow has to pay for them.

The bus to Feltham exists, is it popular enough to show what’s needed? The point about southern, and western, access is about journey time, not feasibility.

While Feltham is the nearest station on the south side, the airport's access and traffic in the intermediate area is not really conducive to the bus link playing as major a part as another link could.

 

[cactustwirly]

Before commiting to the substantial sums of money required for the rebuilds needed to actually use the Southern Rail access project, how about testing if southern access is really attractive by building an urban ropeway conection from Heathrow TErminal 4 to Ashford (Surrey) station?

Theres a route over the reservoirs that doesn't overfly any residential properties with only a single angle tower. The journey time would be a small number of minutes.

Obviously you'd have to run a couple more trains via Ashford to utilise it, but naively I'd suggest it would still be cheaper than the major construction the southern access people are proposing.

Most passengers will be travelling to Terminal 5 not 4

 

[Farnborough]

There will be passengers in the Basingstoke to Staines area who want OOC and Paddington and their connections.

Fine... they can change at T5 or T2/3

 

[MotCO]

The other thing to consider is the motorways are congested now, they almost certainly couldn't cope with the extra traffic from a third runway.

As such it's not just a case of could a rail link be viable now, but what would that look like if it was taking 10% of current vehicles (due to the uplift from the extra runway, which could be as much as +33%)?

10% extra would be the equivalent of about 120 flights a day, of we assume an average of 160 people per flight (based on the most used aircraft which is the A320) that works out at an average of 500 people per hour per direction over an 18 hour day.

Over a 4tph that's 125 people per train, yes that's fairly lightly loaded train, but that's assuming 90% of new passengers travel by other modes and 100% of existing passengers carry on travelling how they currently do. It also assumes no other travel (those going to Old Oak Common or Paddington/Euston).

And that's just the passengers. What about the friends to see them off, aircrew, staff in terminals, staff in the shopping centres etc etc.

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of going through to OOC... how many people will need that connection? LHR is the destination, not a via.

Yes, but a via reduces the need for terminal platforms (and the time required to turn trains round), and effectively gives you two services for the price of one. Underground, Thameslink and Elizabeth Line trains do not terminate in London - they run through giving people who live at either end of the line an easy access to London and points beyond. A service going through Heathrow will be able to serve passengers from either end of the line.

 

[Farnborough]

Yes, but a via reduces the need for terminal platforms (and the time required to turn trains round)

Hence my route of T5 - T2/3 - T4... T4 is never going to be anything but a terminus.

Given the limited number of paths, we can't have direct services from everywhere to everywhere.

 

[The Ham]

Hence my route of T5 - T2/3 - T4... T4 is never going to be anything but a terminus.

Given the limited number of paths, we can't have direct services from everywhere to everywhere.

The thing is, that on the mainlines (GWR and SWR lines) there's no extra services whether they are through services or terminating at Heathrow.

Whilst it would mean that either T4 or T5 isn't served on the through service, is it even possible to serve both on a single service anyway?

 

[Zomboid]

T5 - Central - T4 would require a reversal in the Central station, which would eat capacity. Better to do Woking/ wherever through to Paddington & OOC, and not increase the number of trains through the central station.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hence my route of T5 - T2/3 - T4... T4 is never going to be anything but a terminus.

Given the limited number of paths, we can't have direct services from everywhere to everywhere.

But T4 is going to close when Heathrow has the 3rd runway and rebuilds T1 for the T2 extension. Everythign eill be via T5 and Heathrow Central.

 

[Meerkat]

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of going through to OOC... how many people will need that connection? LHR is the destination, not a via.

OOC would open up lots of commuting/connections routes from outer suburban SWR into West London.
Getting from SWR to stations on GWR/Lizzie is not easy.

 

[FMerrymon]

This slide is great from Michael Dnes on how to reduce demand on the m25 with sustainable alternatives. Both Old Oak Common and Southern rail access mentioned. A lot of potential for radial journeys, as well as connectivity to the airport and hs2.

https://x.com/MichaelDnes1/status/1768567046915125528?t=x_MzUy-_D7ExbkXQ73IDJg&s=19

 

[RailWonderer]

Isn't the problem with turning the Heathrow branch into a through service that the area is too built up around it?

But T4 is going to close when Heathrow has the 3rd runway and rebuilds T1 for the T2 extension. Everythign eill be via T5 and Heathrow Central.

I thought the 3rd runway will be built north over the airport hotels, Harmondsworth village and the current BA HQ, not T4 side on the south. And will they resituate the BA HQ brick by brick? There are still many unknowns.

 

[JamesT]

Isn't the problem with turning the Heathrow branch into a through service that the area is too built up around it?

I thought the 3rd runway will be built north over the airport hotels, Harmondsworth village and the current BA HQ, not T4 side on the south. And will they resituate the BA HQ brick by brick? There are still many unknowns.

The plans from 2019 at https://www.heathrow.com/content/da...nsultation/airport expansion consultation.pdf
Have the existing layout on page 7 and the proposed one on page 15. Although T4 has a label on the first page, it does not on the second implying as @Bald Rick said that it would be closed and its services shifted to expanded other terminals.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't the problem with turning the Heathrow branch into a through service that the area is too built up around it?

I thought the 3rd runway will be built north over the airport hotels, Harmondsworth village and the current BA HQ, not T4 side on the south. And will they resituate the BA HQ brick by brick? There are still many unknowns.

Runway three is to the north (and west).

But T4 is small, cramped, and awkwardly placed in airfield terms. Hence it is proposed for closure as and when the new terminals (T5 extension, and T2 extension) are operating with much higher capacity.

 

[MotCO]

Runway three is to the north (and west).

But T4 is small, cramped, and awkwardly placed in airfield terms. Hence it is proposed for closure as and when the new terminals (T5 extension, and T2 extension) are operating with much higher capacity.

As I understand it, the new runway will be a fair distance from the other runways and terminals. How will the Elizabeth line link to Heathrow connect the new terminal? Would it be easier to link it from the west rather than the east, or could the GWR be slewed southwards to serve it?

 

[SynthD]

As I understand it, the new runway will be a fair distance from the other runways and terminals. How will the Elizabeth line link to Heathrow connect the new terminal? Would it be easier to link it from the west rather than the east, or could the GWR be slewed southwards to serve it?

What I thought of as Terminal 6 is named Terminal 5X North in the document linked a few comments ago. That sounds like it is on a private link, not public transport (or road access, pg 21). This would simplify the rail map - Paddington/Hatton Cross, Heathrow Central, Heathrow T5 - before terminating or leaving in new tunnels.

Surface access proposals pdf https://www.heathrow.com/content/da...-information/2022-Surface-Access-Strategy.pdf
On page 36 it talks about funding WRLtH, and waiting on DfT for SAtH.

Page 37 says there will be Heathrow Express signage and staff at Old Oak Common.

 

[RailWonderer]

Runway three is to the north (and west).

But T4 is small, cramped, and awkwardly placed in airfield terms. Hence it is proposed for closure as and when the new terminals (T5 extension, and T2 extension) are operating with much higher capacity.

Ideally you would have BA's maintennance area and T4 swap places but under the new plans it still looks like some departure gates are planned at T4 but it's all proposed and not confirmed. There is also no clarity about where airport hotels would resituate to, or the pick up and drop off area for T5 seems to have disappeared as has the car park - which makes no sense.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I understand it, the new runway will be a fair distance from the other runways and terminals. How will the Elizabeth line link to Heathrow connect the new terminal? Would it be easier to link it from the west rather than the east, or could the GWR be slewed southwards to serve it?

The new terminals are either all within the existing areas (which Heathrow refers to as a ‘Campus’, eg the T5 Campus), or will be connected to them by dedicated transit.

The expanded T2 will use the existing central area stations
The new T5X will use the existing T5 station
The new T5XN will have a transit from T5X, similar to how Gstwick has a transit between Borth and South terminals.