What to do about London-Chester

[cle]

BA have cut so many flights, and there is no BMI - and ECML isn’t really in the zeitgeist (it used to be basically two hourly and same London journey time of 5:30 or so)

Times are very different - I do wish there were more faster journeys closer to 4:10-4:15 as there were.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

What to do about London-Chester?

Restore a GWR service to Paddington via Shrewsbury, Birmingham, Oxford and Reading, operated by IETs!

No, No, No! Electrify Crewe to Birkenhead and run an hourly Birkenhead to Euston service.

 

[Bald Rick]

BA have cut so many flights, and there is no BMI

indeed - but why have they cut them? It’s because the competition is better Than it was!

 

[Mogz]

No, No, No! Electrify Crewe to Birkenhead and run an hourly Birkenhead to Euston service.

If you had a bi-mode EMU that could do both overhead and third rail, you would only need to in-fill electrify Chester-Crewe.

Question is, which Birkenhead station would you serve?

You could turn Rock Ferry into a sort of Wirral Parkway, I suppose, if reopening the tunnels to Woodside (and rebuilding the same) was too costly…

 

[Foxcover]

777s to Euston!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Really? Who says?

There’s not a huge amount of semantic difference between the words arguable and questionable, I guess

 

[Techniquest]

outrageous

I loved that comment, I have an image of Mr Burns exclaiming it and that makes me laugh

No fantasy ideas from me about the Avanti London-Chester services and the new trains coming soon, I can only agree with Bald Rick's comment and some of the ideas posted are interesting but crazy in equal measures.

Not that I'd not support a Paddington-Chester via Oxford, Birmingham and Shrewsbury service, if the infrastructure was there it would have Open Access written all over it!

 

[cle]

I loved that comment, I have an image of Mr Burns exclaiming it and that makes me laugh

No fantasy ideas from me about the Avanti London-Chester services and the new trains coming soon, I can only agree with Bald Rick's comment and some of the ideas posted are interesting but crazy in equal measures.

Not that I'd not support a Paddington-Chester via Oxford, Birmingham and Shrewsbury service, if the infrastructure was there it would have Open Access written all over it!

It would indeed. I'd think Marylebone a cleaner shot given a quicker route to Banbury, and diesel stock likely needed. Much like the old Wrexham - but with revenue stops at New St, Wolves and running through to Chester instead. Maybe first stop Solihull or Leamington out of London, give a little competition on that route.

 

[Techniquest]

It would indeed. I'd think Marylebone a cleaner shot given a quicker route to Banbury, and diesel stock likely needed. Much like the old Wrexham - but with revenue stops at New St, Wolves and running through to Chester instead. Maybe first stop Solihull or Leamington out of London, give a little competition on that route.

Very good idea, given how slow the Silver sets have gone. When I got on the 1255 from Moor Street recently it had so many stops south of Banbury it was off-putting. A far cry from the express running south of Bicester that it used to be!

I think such an OA operation has more chance than that Paddington-Carmarthen proposal.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not that I'd not support a Paddington-Chester via Oxford, Birmingham and Shrewsbury service, if the infrastructure was there it would have Open Access written all over it!

The infrastructure is there!

But the paths are not. And it would never pass the regulatory tests, as it could only be primarliy abstractive on any worthwhile flow.

 

[cle]

Very good idea, given how slow the Silver sets have gone. When I got on the 1255 from Moor Street recently it had so many stops south of Banbury it was off-putting. A far cry from the express running south of Bicester that it used to be!

I think such an OA operation has more chance than that Paddington-Carmarthen proposal.

It's extremely slow now, and definitely not a point to point service. Which is fine - but perhaps there is a market for faster. Most of the line is 100mph at least, so it's good for a non-stop diesel run. And west of Wolves will be pretty slow so only main stops.

Birmingham Interchange HS2 will suck up Solihull eventually, but for now a fast service something like:

Marylebone - Leamington Spa - Solihull - (Birmingham New St ) - Wolverhampton - Telford C - Shrewsbury - Wrexham G - Chester

might be interesting. BNS as optional depending on the pathing - maybe the old Tame Bridge route will have to come back instead. I don't think it's especially abstractive either in this day and age of LNR getting everywhere.

 

[The Planner]

It's extremely slow now, and definitely not a point to point service. Which is fine - but perhaps there is a market for faster. Most of the line is 100mph at least, so it's good for a non-stop diesel run. And west of Wolves will be pretty slow so only main stops.

Birmingham Interchange HS2 will suck up Solihull eventually, but for now a fast service something like:

Marylebone - Leamington Spa - Solihull - (Birmingham New St ) - Wolverhampton - Telford C - Shrewsbury - Wrexham G - Chester

might be interesting. BNS as optional depending on the pathing - maybe the old Tame Bridge route will have to come back instead. I don't think it's especially abstractive either in this day and age of LNR getting everywhere.

Its massively abstractive. If you are calling at Solihull you will be going through New St to get to Wolves.

 

[cle]

From whom? Avanti or LNR? If there are two (on the same route) - there can be another (on another route) - surely? Plus Chiltern to Moor St - so plenty of competition already. It's one of the only genuine routes that is.

And via Bordesley - you don't. The last go round (Wrexham Shropshire) went that way - and called at Tame Bridge Parkway.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it's especially abstractive either in this day and age of LNR getting everywhere.

From whom? Avanti or LNR? If there are two (on the same route) - there can be another (on another route) - surely? Plus Chiltern to Moor St - so plenty of competition already. It's one of the only genuine routes that is.

And via Bordesley - you don't. The last go round (Wrexham Shropshire) went that way - and called at Tame Bridge Parkway.

it is almost entirely abstractive.

London - Leamington / Solihull from Chiltern

London - all the others from Avanti / WMT / TfW

Leamington - Wolves / Shrewsbury / Chester from XC, WMT / TfW

Birmingham - Wolves / Shrewsbury / Chester from WMT And TfW

and onto incidentally, the big money is on the London flows. Hence why there are no open access passenger operators* that don’t service London (as Go Op are going to find out the hard way).

*running regular service trains in the national fares system.

 

[The Planner]

From whom? Avanti or LNR? If there are two (on the same route) - there can be another (on another route) - surely? Plus Chiltern to Moor St - so plenty of competition already. It's one of the only genuine routes that is.

And via Bordesley - you don't. The last go round (Wrexham Shropshire) went that way - and called at Tame Bridge Parkway.

How do you get from Bordesley to Wolves without passing through New St? Unless you are suggesting some lunacy like going via Sutton Park.

 

[cle]

Yes it routes that way but it didn’t call - was my point, re New St and WSMR.

Bald Rick - The fact that so many are listed for abstraction means it’s probably good. To me, it should be duplicating like for like. Not serving two of the same metros on a different route. Or multiple wgments of a route which one operator might thread together into something which has new pairs, seat churn and meaningful frequency to the likes of Telford, Shrewsbury and Wrexham which only exist by token, competition quashing tactics.

Don’t you see the irony in listing Avanti and WMT? They actually are the same route - that they both even exist to list, vindicates this discussion at least in regards to Brum itself. And Chiltern too - which is now a slower service and with HS2, will evolve moreso away from P2P. I don’t see any issues here - that would be 5 choices for passengers to Birmingham, so there is no abstraction. Which in itself is surely moot with multiple players.

 

[JonathanH]

Don’t you see the irony in listing Avanti and WMT? They actually are the same route - that they both even exist to list, vindicates this discussion at least in regards to Brum itself. And Chiltern too - which is now a slower service and with HS2, will evolve moreso away from P2P. I don’t see any issues here - that would be 5 choices for passengers to Birmingham, so there is no abstraction. Which in itself is surely moot with multiple players.

One of the possible outcomes of GBR is that all of the operators between London and Birmingham start to charge the same amount. The DfT won't worry about abstraction because all the revenue goes into one pot. The issue with open access operators is that the money is taken out of the DfT train set.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes it routes that way but it didn’t call - was my point, re New St and WSMR.

Bald Rick - The fact that so many are listed for abstraction means it’s probably good. To me, it should be duplicating like for like. Not serving two of the same metros on a different route. Or multiple wgments of a route which one operator might thread together into something which has new pairs, seat churn and meaningful frequency to the likes of Telford, Shrewsbury and Wrexham which only exist by token, competition quashing tactics.

Don’t you see the irony in listing Avanti and WMT? They actually are the same route - that they both even exist to list, vindicates this discussion at least in regards to Brum itself. And Chiltern too - which is now a slower service and with HS2, will evolve moreso away from P2P. I don’t see any issues here - that would be 5 choices for passengers to Birmingham, so there is no abstraction. Which in itself is surely moot with multiple players.

you might not see any issues, but that doesn’t change the facts! Just because there are multiple operators between London and Birmingham doesn’t make it non-abstractive.

It would be primarily, overwhelmingly, abstractive, and that’s that.

 

[cle]

And yet new entrants have joined that market over time. It’s not a hill to die on because it’s speculative (!) but I think you’re both missing the point of competition.

And not seeing the diversification of routes, new city pairs, new London directs, stopping pattern differentiation (new fasts), meaningful frequency to routes currently skeleton (competing with 1tpd is abstractive? Even when that 1tpd was a hostile Virgin move?!) - there is nuance here being overlooked in the whole concept of why we have limited competition and too much literal thinking.

Were Silverlink/LNR selling Birmingham and Crewe tickets abstractive? Chiltern to Moor St? And yet here we are, they exist so clearly were ok - same with Lumo for God’s sake which is barely unique.

But on the cheaper providers, new markets were built and rail journeys generated (against car/no travel options - not just Virgin or nothing) - and now those newcomers should have protectionism? Not really in the spirit of how they came to being.

 

[Bald Rick]

Were Silverlink/LNR selling Birmingham and Crewe tickets abstractive? Chiltern to Moor St?

no, because they were specified and agreed by the franchise authority, and the fares revenue stays within the franchised railway.

same with Lumo for God’s sake which is barely unique.

Lumo applied for access rights 6-7 years ago. It’s fair to say that if they did now, they wouldn’t get them.

 

[6Gman]

How do you get from Bordesley to Wolves without passing through New St? Unless you are suggesting some lunacy like going via Sutton Park.

I was just about to mention that somebody would come up with that . . .

And then it could offer a direct Walsall - London service!