What use is a turnback at Longsight? (Castlefield Corridor)

[edwin_m]

Boarding an empty train starting at Piccadilly will be quicker in dwell time terms than a train arriving from the Airport that passengers have to alight first.

Yes, but if the passengers from the airport are distributed across fewer trains, there will be more of them on each one and the dwell time for those could be longer.

 

[Watershed]

Terminating a train at Picc. P!3 whether planned or unplanned presumably requires a longer dwell than a simple call to enable the Conductor, perhaps assisted by station staff to ensure all passengers are off the train and therefore 'delays' the arrival of the next train i.e. it consumes capacity.

Indeed it does. Minimum dwell time at Picc is 2 minutes (except for 323s). Most TOCs require longer than that for the conductor to dispose of the train. Often there is no alternative but for a train to continue in passenger service as a result.

Why couldn’t the Oxford Road terminators go to a Longsight turnback? You can access more of the centre of Manchester that way, with no conflicting movement on departure across the lines at Oxford Road going back towards Liverpool

If you're referring to the CLC stoppers, they have a decent-ish turnaround at Oxford Road. If you went as far as Longsight you would probably need an extra diagram - and given that many trains are doubled up, that means 2 extra units. Possibly 3 if that results in needing extra spare/maintenance coverage.

Rather a high cost, simply to add 1tph to an already congested corridor. The conflict on departure from platform 5 is not ideal but it is the least worst option in the circumstances.

 

[AndyW33]

I do not understand why Network Rail can't ban long-distance TOCs (TPE/TfW/EMR) from using the Castlefield corridor; this would solve the problems at a stroke. Northern Rail could run 1 semi-fast tph from Lime Street via the CLC line and Stockport to Sheffield to preserve a connection between Merseyside and South Yorkshire as there is no realistic alternative route, but otherwise the Castlefield line should be used solely from a passenger angle for local/regional services only.

But surely Network rail have no real authority to ban something that the DfT have specified as part of a Franchise or Emergency agreement, unless there is a short-term safety issue. Many here will say that the DfT is part of the problem, but the fact is that the whole railway has to dance to their tune, and they in turn have to dance to the Treasury's tune. It is naive to imagine that Network Rail would act in defiance of the DfT - they might well negotiate strongly behind the scenes, but never in the public gaze.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, but if the passengers from the airport are distributed across fewer trains, there will be more of them on each one and the dwell time for those could be longer.

We're probably only talking 1 or 2 trains per hour possibly no longer carrying on to the Airport - the nature of the current service from the Airport doesn't mean that passengers are particularly evenly spread to begin with.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes, but if the passengers from the airport are distributed across fewer trains, there will be more of them on each one and the dwell time for those could be longer.

Furthermore, more through passengers from/to the Airport will have to change at Piccadilly, increasing platform congestion and consequently dwell times.

 

[alangla]

I suppose the alternative is something like Stockport, but that just introduces more faff at either the station throat or Slade Lane and the north end of Stockport station. I guess running to the airport might generate some extra journeys (in normal times) but Stockport probably won't other than carrying local passengers (which in itself could be worthwhile if it generated ORCATS cash)
Had a brief look at the timetables and it appears to be about 5 or more mins quicker non-stop than going to the airport.

 

[edwin_m]

I suppose the alternative is something like Stockport, but that just introduces more faff at either the station throat or Slade Lane and the north end of Stockport station. I guess running to the airport might generate some extra journeys (in normal times) but Stockport probably won't other than carrying local passengers (which in itself could be worthwhile if it generated ORCATS cash)
Had a brief look at the timetables and it appears to be about 5 or more mins quicker non-stop than going to the airport.

As well as problems at Slade Lane, trains would have to either use the Up Fast and cross the Down Fast to get to the bay at Stockport, or use the Up Slow and cross both Fasts.

 

[Jack Hay]

If we're looking at problem-free places to terminate trains from the west or north-west in central Manchester, which are certainly lacking today, my suggestion is to re-instate the crossover at Oxford Road that was removed in the 1980s which allowed westbound departures from P3 directly onto the down line, making P3 in effect a central turnback road. (In fact Oxford Road had so many crossovers until it was simplified in the 80s that all of P4/3/2 could act as centre turnback roads from the west!). Terminating at Oxford Road is a nuisance if you want a connection at Piccadilly, but you'll never wait more than a few minutes for a train between Ox.Rd. and Picc, and if your destination is the city centre, then Ox.Rd. is the closer station anyway.

 

[sportzbar]

If we're looking at problem-free places to terminate trains from the west or north-west in central Manchester, which are certainly lacking today, my suggestion is to re-instate the crossover at Oxford Road that was removed in the 1980s which allowed westbound departures from P3 directly onto the down line, making P3 in effect a central turnback road. (In fact Oxford Road had so many crossovers until it was simplified in the 80s that all of P4/3/2 could act as centre turnback roads from the west!). Terminating at Oxford Road is a nuisance if you want a connection at Piccadilly, but you'll never wait more than a few minutes for a train between Ox.Rd. and Picc, and if your destinatiuon is the city centre, then Ox.Rd. is the closer station anyway.

I may be wrong (it's been a couple of years since I worked it), but westbound departures from platform 3 are possible. I'm sure there is a crossover little further along which enables the Liverpool terminator trains to access the down line from P5. The job I worked was a Clitheroe on a Sunday which was diverted to Oxford Road as Vic was under possession. I'm 99% sure I left from P3.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I may be wrong (it's been a couple of years since I worked it), but westbound departures from platform 3 are possible. I'm sure there is a crossover little further along which enables the Liverpool terminator trains to access the down line from P5. The job I worked was a Clitheroe on a Sunday which was diverted to Oxford Road as Vic was under possession. I'm 99% sure I left from P3.

Correct, but the now removed crossover enabled a westbound departure from platform 3 without conflicting with the up line whereas today the train would run on the up until it reached the crossover and thus stop movements on the up until clear, effectively removing a path for an up train into P4.
Terminating in platform 3 is also length constrained by the middle signal.

 

[sportzbar]

Correct, but the now removed crossover enabled a westbound departure from platform 3 without conflicting with the up line whereas today the train would run on the up until it reached the crossover and thus stop movements on the up until clear, effectively removing a path for an up train into P4.
Terminating in platform 3 is also length constrained by the middle signal.

Ahhh get ya! Before my time that

 

[Ianno87]

If we're looking at problem-free places to terminate trains from the west or north-west in central Manchester, which are certainly lacking today, my suggestion is to re-instate the crossover at Oxford Road that was removed in the 1980s which allowed westbound departures from P3 directly onto the down line, making P3 in effect a central turnback road. (In fact Oxford Road had so many crossovers until it was simplified in the 80s that all of P4/3/2 could act as centre turnback roads from the west!). Terminating at Oxford Road is a nuisance if you want a connection at Piccadilly, but you'll never wait more than a few minutes for a train between Ox.Rd. and Picc, and if your destination is the city centre, then Ox.Rd. is the closer station anyway.

Problem with using P3 is loading yet more passengers onto that island and the footbridge.

The benefit of P5 is putting passengers straight into the relatively uncontested area between P4 and P5.

To use P3 you really need a complete rebuild of the station.