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What was the "Operation Princess" story ?

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Bletchleyite

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What exactly was the Operation Princess story?

Discussed in some detail here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/operation-princess.61372/

Essentially, Virgin ordered insufficient new stock for the service they planned to operate using it (a familiar story) - the capacity per hour was in some cases less than in the former HST/LHCS timetable, let alone any growth build - leading to severe overcrowding and then significant retrenchment over time.

It's a very similar story to the Class 185 introduction, but TPE have not retrenched to (partly) fix the problem, they've kept on using the fleet ever more thinly with several expansions (taking over the Scottish and North West services, for instance) until the delivery of the 2019 new stock.
 

Djgr

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Discussed in some detail here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/operation-princess.61372/

Essentially, Virgin ordered insufficient new stock for the service they planned to operate using it (a familiar story) - the capacity per hour was in some cases less than in the former HST/LHCS timetable, let alone any growth build - leading to severe overcrowding and then significant retrenchment over time.

It's a very similar story to the Class 185 introduction, but TPE have not retrenched to (partly) fix the problem, they've kept on using the fleet ever more thinly with several expansions (taking over the Scottish and North West services, for instance) until the delivery of the 2019 new stock.

And Liverpool lost ALL of its Cross Country services, never to return.
 

Bevan Price

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Discussed in some detail here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/operation-princess.61372/

Essentially, Virgin ordered insufficient new stock for the service they planned to operate using it (a familiar story) - the capacity per hour was in some cases less than in the former HST/LHCS timetable, let alone any growth build - leading to severe overcrowding and then significant retrenchment over time.
.

Not that the VT Liverpool / Scotland service was a lot of use, just one train each way per day**, and interworked with the Liverpool / Portsmouth service.
(** An early morning Edinburgh - Liverpool, plus a late afternoon service from Liverpool - Edinburgh.)

And don't forget that the original Pendolinos were built as 8 coaches (of which 4 were 1st Class -- incredibly stupid). The 9th coach was added later - and more recently, some were extended to 11 coaches, whilst on the 9 coach sets, 1st Class was reduced to 3 coaches.
 

Bletchleyite

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And don't forget that the original Pendolinos were built as 8 coaches (of which 4 were 1st Class -- incredibly stupid)

Was this not originally with the intention of implementing the "3 class" blue/purple/orange zone thing they had going? So in the peaks First would be busy with proper First ticketholders (as back then business travellers mostly did get 1st unlike now), and off-peak the "purple zone" would take up some of First and some of Standard, available to Standard Anytime ticket holders and Advance type tickets? Essentially a similar concept I think to Avanti's "premium economy".
 

Djgr

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Was this not originally with the intention of implementing the "3 class" blue/purple/orange zone thing they had going? So in the peaks First would be busy with proper First ticketholders (as back then business travellers mostly did get 1st unlike now), and off-peak the "purple zone" would take up some of First and some of Standard, available to Standard Anytime ticket holders and Advance type tickets? Essentially a similar concept I think to Avanti's "premium economy".

Yes indeed. And Virgin soon found this added complexity impossible to manage and dumped the whole idea.
 

route101

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Not that the VT Liverpool / Scotland service was a lot of use, just one train each way per day**, and interworked with the Liverpool / Portsmouth service.
(** An early morning Edinburgh - Liverpool, plus a late afternoon service from Liverpool - Edinburgh.)

And don't forget that the original Pendolinos were built as 8 coaches (of which 4 were 1st Class -- incredibly stupid). The 9th coach was added later - and more recently, some were extended to 11 coaches, whilst on the 9 coach sets, 1st Class was reduced to 3 coaches.

Was it a Class 158?

Did Class 47s and MK2 s operate to Scotland?
 

Ianno87

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Not that the VT Liverpool / Scotland service was a lot of use, just one train each way per day**, and interworked with the Liverpool / Portsmouth service.
(** An early morning Edinburgh - Liverpool, plus a late afternoon service from Liverpool - Edinburgh.)

And don't forget that the original Pendolinos were built as 8 coaches (of which 4 were 1st Class -- incredibly stupid). The 9th coach was added later - and more recently, some were extended to 11 coaches, whilst on the 9 coach sets, 1st Class was reduced to 3 coaches.

XC southwards from Liverpool under Princess was every two hours to Portsmouth via Birmingham (essentially alternating with a Manchester-Gatwick/Brighton on the altermate hour). Problem was the turnround at Liverpool Lime Street was only about 10 minutes or so, off memory! From May 2003, it was standardised into hourly Manchester-Reading, fewer extensions to Guildford/Gatwick/Brighton, and Portsmouth was dropped entirely.

The half-hourly LM/LNWR service to Brum is probably much better overall these days (well, when it runs...)
 

Aictos

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Operation Princess was a good idea in principle but failed because the powers to be didn’t realise that if you increase the frequency of a service you will attract more users.

If they ordered more trains or even the same amount of trains but as 9 car sets then it would have worked as a result we are now subject to the short term thinking that plagues the industry with trains that are too short to cope with the levels of passengers travelling on our network!
 

Bletchleyite

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Operation Princess was a good idea in principle but failed because the powers to be didn’t realise that if you increase the frequency of a service you will attract more users.

If they ordered more trains or even the same amount of trains but as 9 car sets then it would have worked as a result we are now subject to the short term thinking that plagues the industry with trains that are too short to cope with the levels of passengers travelling on our network!

It would have worked had twice as many coaches been ordered. I wonder if this could have been achieved by ordering much cheaper Class 170s instead of Voyagers?
 

Ianno87

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Operation Princess was a good idea in principle but failed because the powers to be didn’t realise that if you increase the frequency of a service you will attract more users.

Incorrect. Everybody knows demand will respond to a frequency increase.

What's basically inpossible is accurately forecast whether it'll be 1% growth or 100% growth in response to a step change to the level that Princess was. How does one justify a rolling stock order several years before the change on supposition of what growth might be?
 

Spartacus

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In fairness it brought instant problems before any increase in passenger numbers when people didn’t spread their journeys out as expected. This was never going to be a practical proposition anywhere the service wasn’t full frequency, places like Leeds suffering terribly when only half the trains call there (the other half going via Doncaster), and still causes problems to this day.

Funny enough, the man behind it all is a lot keener on Mk3s these days, though steam hauled ones.....
 

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It would have worked had twice as many coaches been ordered. I wonder if this could have been achieved by ordering much cheaper Class 170s instead of Voyagers?
I think the problem with thatis that XC has always been supposed to be an InterCity-quality service. Those of us who experienced 170s in their time on the Midland Main Line could never see them as IC stock, either in terms of performance or of comfort (save for the few first-class seats provided by the follow-up order). Otherwise, dreadful trains, especially if you ended up sitting in standard class in a wall-side seat.
 

30907

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Incorrect. Everybody knows demand will respond to a frequency increase.

What's basically inpossible is accurately forecast whether it'll be 1% growth or 100% growth in response to a step change to the level that Princess was. How does one justify a rolling stock order several years before the change on supposition of what growth might be?

ISTR though that the business case depended on considerably increased revenue, very high seat occupancy levels and indeed stock utilisation almost from go.

the service wasn’t full frequency, places like Leeds suffering terribly when only half the trains call there (the other half going via Doncaster), and still causes problems to this day....
Leeds only ever had about 50% of the CrossCountry service right from its reorganisation under InterCity; however Leeds trains mostly didn't run through to/from Newcastle.
 

Spartacus

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ISTR though that the business case depended on considerably increased revenue, very high seat occupancy levels and indeed stock utilisation almost from go.


Leeds only ever had about 50% of the CrossCountry service right from its reorganisation under InterCity; however Leeds trains mostly didn't run through to/from Newcastle.

The point is that locations such as Leeds were never going to be in a position where many passengers were going to be willing to move their daily journeys an hour either way, which is what was expected.
 

Bletchleyite

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Incorrect. Everybody knows demand will respond to a frequency increase.

What's basically inpossible is accurately forecast whether it'll be 1% growth or 100% growth in response to a step change to the level that Princess was. How does one justify a rolling stock order several years before the change on supposition of what growth might be?

Princess actually brought an overall decrease in core capacity, if I recall correctly. They could have easily predicted what that might do, particularly once you take peaks into account.

I believe the original plan was to hide that by way of compulsory reservations. I'm not quite sure what prevented that.

Exactly the same as the Class 185s.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the problem with thatis that XC has always been supposed to be an InterCity-quality service. Those of us who experienced 170s in their time on the Midland Main Line could never see them as IC stock, either in terms of performance or of comfort (save for the few first-class seats provided by the follow-up order). Otherwise, dreadful trains, especially if you ended up sitting in standard class in a wall-side seat.

It didn't help that the MML 170s had one row too many in the centre section. Later units had 10 rows there, e.g. the Scottish ones, which both means full window alignment and means a decent amount of space. The Scottish 170s are very nice indeed, and unless you suffer from door position prejudice are far more IC than any Voyager will ever be.

I think a lot of us also thought 170s would shake themselves to bits within 10 years, but they have proven better built than they appeared.
 

Taunton

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The whole Princess operation was also an enormous Orcats raid on the revenue streams of existing operators which used full length trains, whether former ER on Doncaster to Aberdeen, or former WR on Bristol to Penzance, etc. When first introduced there were further such streams as well. Of course, some of the established traffic on these flows transferred to the service.
 

swt_passenger

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Operation Princess was a good idea in principle but failed because the powers to be didn’t realise that if you increase the frequency of a service you will attract more users.

If they ordered more trains or even the same amount of trains but as 9 car sets then it would have worked as a result we are now subject to the short term thinking that plagues the industry with trains that are too short to cope with the levels of passengers travelling on our network!
It didn’t just fail because of the length of the trains. The underlying timetable couldn’t work anyway, because they didn’t allow for normal turnaround times. See for example all the previous discussions about why XC stopped running to Poole...
 

Goldfish62

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Was this not originally with the intention of implementing the "3 class" blue/purple/orange zone thing they had going? So in the peaks First would be busy with proper First ticketholders (as back then business travellers mostly did get 1st unlike now), and off-peak the "purple zone" would take up some of First and some of Standard, available to Standard Anytime ticket holders and Advance type tickets? Essentially a similar concept I think to Avanti's "premium economy".
It's also why all three toilets on Voyagers are universal. One for each proposed class, taking up scarce space.
 

randyrippley

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Was this not originally with the intention of implementing the "3 class" blue/purple/orange zone thing they had going? So in the peaks First would be busy with proper First ticketholders (as back then business travellers mostly did get 1st unlike now), and off-peak the "purple zone" would take up some of First and some of Standard, available to Standard Anytime ticket holders and Advance type tickets? Essentially a similar concept I think to Avanti's "premium economy".

The colour zoning thing predates the Voyagers / Pendolinos and was implemented really stupidly. It was trialed at Lancaster with FOUR zones (not three) and the yellow platform strip replaced with the four colours, along with matching signs. This was pre-pendolino, may even have been pre-virgin. Announcements stated which zone each coach was in - and which zone had empty seats. I've a feeling it was also trialed at Preston.
Anyway, someone decided it was a good idea to roll out nationally - but as three zones using signs to denote the areas. But it was unclear if the new signs marked the centres or the ends of the zone. Also the old signs and the platform edge stripes were left in place, total chaos.

From memory the four colours were gold, pink, blue, yellow but I may have misremembered
 

Bletchleyite

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No, you are confusing BR platform zones (which were just about showing coach positions) with Virgin on board zoning which was about class of service.

The BR one had four everywhere, gold, blue, purple and orange.
 

tbtc

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The operation that Virgin inherited from BR was a fairly ramshackle operation - lots of places were "on the map" but with little practical service. It was a bit like the National Express coach "network" is today. So you could get from one city to another city but there might only be one train a day, so not much use unless you were the kind of "time rich" person able to wait until then - places like Brighton have subsequently lost their cross-country services but it probably wasn't of much use to everyday passengers, given the limited service.

It's amazing in hindsight just how optimistic/ far-fetched/ ambitious Operation Princess was (delete as applicable).

Not just the effective doubling of the "core" from Birmingham to Bristol/ Newcastle/ Reading/ Manchester but also the extensions beyond there - bi-hourly trains to Dundee, bi-hourly extension of Bristol services to Cardiff - plus through trains to the likes of Swansea.

The whole Princess operation was also an enormous Orcats raid on the revenue streams of existing operators which used full length trains, whether former ER on Doncaster to Aberdeen, or former WR on Bristol to Penzance, etc. When first introduced there were further such streams as well. Of course, some of the established traffic on these flows transferred to the service.

It certainly turned XC from an occasional operator (with random timed trains) on some routes to being a major player (with a clock face timetable)

e.g. Edinburgh to Newcastle went from three journeys a day (that were effectively early morning/ late evening depot runs, much like the EMR services from Neville Hill to Sheffield/ East Midlands)... to an hourly service all day long.. the "fast" service from Leeds to Sheffield was only a few a day (given that there was only about one train per hour from Newcastle to Birmingham, albeit unevenly timed, and some of these went via Doncaster, some of them went via Leeds *and* Doncaster - so fairly few running fast from Leeds to Sheffield)... to a simple hourly service... so XC became a main provider - and quickly swamped!

I think people forget how bad a lot of other TOCs were at the time, just a few months after the Hatfield crash which meant timetables ripped up to accommodate a large number of speed restrictions... and how little "modern" stock there was... (and also how poor the long distance frequencies were on other TOCs - e.g. Leeds and Manchester just had one train per hour to London... Reading to Oxford was dominated by three coach Thames Trains 166s)... 2001 was probably about the "lowest" that the railway got (you've got to bear in mind that there was a thousand day gap between orders for new trains in the UK)... so an hourly (or half hourly) XC service with nice modern accessible trains became very attractive (whilst a 158 was about as modern as you'd get on a number of provincial routes) - no wonder passengers moved to XC from other TOCs

Maybe if the transformation to "Princess" had happened a few years later, when other TOCs had improved their capacity and upped their game, XC's new timetable wouldn't have been as swamped by additional passengers as it was. But the levels of non-XC service on routes like Bristol - Exeter or Leeds - Sheffield or Oxford - Reading are significantly better than they once were.

It's also why all three toilets on Voyagers are universal. One for each proposed class, taking up scarce space.

That's the version that gets repeated, but (given that we complain about TOCs cramming in as many seats as possible etc, it's no bad thing to provide accessible toilets for passengers in most coaches - I think that the amount of accessible toilets is underprovided in other trains in comparison

The colour zoning thing predates the Voyagers / Pendolinos and was implemented really stupidly. It was trialed at Lancaster with FOUR zones (not three) and the yellow platform strip replaced with the four colours, along with matching signs. This was pre-pendolino, may even have been pre-virgin. Announcements stated which zone each coach was in - and which zone had empty seats. I've a feeling it was also trialed at Preston.
Anyway, someone decided it was a good idea to roll out nationally - but as three zones using signs to denote the areas. But it was unclear if the new signs marked the centres or the ends of the zone. Also the old signs and the platform edge stripes were left in place, total chaos.

From memory the four colours were gold, pink, blue, yellow but I may have misremembered

It was a good idea in theory.

Dwells on Metro services can be pretty quick but dwells on InterCity services can be horrendous - single/narrow doors being one factor but made worse by the fact that passengers are wanting the specific coach that their seat reservation is in and unsure where to stand.

Put yourself in the shoes of an average member of the public. They know that they need "Coach C" but have no idea where that's going to be on the train - there may be no information at the station you board at, at best there may just be something on the screen saying "Please Note That First Class Is At The Rear" but that may be of no use (for all you know, First Class may be Coach A or Coach Z)... so once the train arrives, you then need to anxiously dash along the platform to find the right door... meaning the dwell is longer than it should be (and that passengers are put off travelling - at least with boarding a plane it's obvious what to do)... so having something to try to get people standing in the correct place seems a positive - it's just that it needs to be pretty consistent across the country

I think the problem with thatis that XC has always been supposed to be an InterCity-quality service. Those of us who experienced 170s in their time on the Midland Main Line could never see them as IC stock, either in terms of performance or of comfort (save for the few first-class seats provided by the follow-up order). Otherwise, dreadful trains, especially if you ended up sitting in standard class in a wall-side seat.

The MML ones were introduced for brand new services, and (due to the timetable) only really much use for "local" journeys where a 170 would be acceptable (e.g. Kettering to London)
 

Flying Claret

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Was there a Ppmpey - Blackpool service as part of this? I'm sure I caught one once, but could be wrong. If so, when did it start and end? I used to travel from lancs to pompey regularly but always had to go via london.
 

tbtc

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Was there a Ppmpey - Blackpool service as part of this? I'm sure I caught one once, but could be wrong. If so, when did it start and end? I used to travel from lancs to pompey regularly but always had to go via london.

Possibly - there seemed to be a lot of random combinations of places on one coast to places on the other side of the country - I'm not sure that there we've even always return journeys - "cross country" was pretty much National Express on rails - no real reason why a place oop north had a link to Southampton or Portsmouth or Brighton (I guess in the way that there's no real reason why one place on the Thameslink network has a link to somewhere specific on the other side of London.

But back then we had lots of other "weird" combinations - I think Wales & West ran something like Brighton to Plymouth, we had Central Trains trying to link pretty much every place on one side of Birmingham to the other ... the network was a lot messier. Good if you really need to travel from (say) Grimsby to Aberystwyth without changing and can wait around all day for that one direct journey but the improved frequencies on most "core" sections was much more important.
 

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A few observations from previous posts.
One of the zones was purple, next to and inside gold. At least one survives, very recently covered by Avanti dark grey vinyl. The Purple Zone reminds me somehow of a 1950's radio sci-fi series. The zones were certainly used in announcements.
The West Coast system of numbers in circles to indicate door positions to be found on most platforms (the ones at Milton Keynes were painted out, strangely) are very accurate but, despite the significance appearing on posters and on the platform departure screens, not many passengers take advantage of them.
the 170s on MML were for new services beyond Derby but south of that point replaced HSTs and were a big comedown. 2+2 seating originally in the first. History is repeating itself with the 360s, I think.
 

The Planner

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It didn’t just fail because of the length of the trains. The underlying timetable couldn’t work anyway, because they didn’t allow for normal turnaround times. See for example all the previous discussions about why XC stopped running to Poole...
Running times were cut to the bone in some locations too.

Was there a Ppmpey - Blackpool service as part of this? I'm sure I caught one once, but could be wrong. If so, when did it start and end? I used to travel from lancs to pompey regularly but always had to go via london.
There was a Blackpool Birmingham International, normally a HST if I recall.
 

Bletchleyite

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A few observations from previous posts.
One of the zones was purple, next to and inside gold. At least one survives, very recently covered by Avanti dark grey vinyl. The Purple Zone reminds me somehow of a 1950's radio sci-fi series. The zones were certainly used in announcements.
The West Coast system of numbers in circles to indicate door positions to be found on most platforms (the ones at Milton Keynes were painted out, strangely) are very accurate but, despite the significance appearing on posters and on the platform departure screens, not many passengers take advantage of them.
the 170s on MML were for new services beyond Derby but south of that point replaced HSTs and were a big comedown. 2+2 seating originally in the first. History is repeating itself with the 360s, I think.

I never noticed the numbers in circles at MKC. Have they perhaps just been added then painted over in removable paint until the PIS can handle them, perhaps?

Not true re 360s, they are being converted to 2+2 Std 2+1 First.
 
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