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What was the "Operation Princess" story ?

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Shaw S Hunter

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There was a Blackpool Birmingham International, normally a HST if I recall.

see below

Was there a Ppmpey - Blackpool service as part of this? I'm sure I caught one once, but could be wrong. If so, when did it start and end? I used to travel from lancs to pompey regularly but always had to go via london.

The Portsmouth services were rather convenient for journeys between South Lancs and Guildford and I used them a number of times with just about every possible form of traction. My first trip, on a 1435 Portsmouth Harbour to Blackpool North, was a 158 though in July 1999 I had a HST on a 0736 Blackpool North to Portsmouth Harbour and again in January 2000 when the service ran to Portsmouth & Southsea. By September 2000 it had switched to 47/8 power though by March 2001 it was back to a 158. A journey in June 2002 saw the Portsmouth service cut back to Birmingham New Street though with Voyager traction, both 220 and 221. My last trip was in April 2003 when it ran from/to Liverpool Lime Street with a Voyager.

Another "oddball" early in the franchise was a HST-operated Edinburgh-Blackpool North service which I used once in September 1998. This was also around the time that VWC was using HSTs between Euston and Manchester between Holyhead trips, all some time before Pendolinos entered service.

A part of Operation Princess which was never implemented was the use of short HSTs, with just a single power car and to be known as Pioneers, to provide a regular service between Birmingham and Swindon via Cheltenham. Optimistic times!
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Was there a Ppmpey - Blackpool service as part of this? I'm sure I caught one once, but could be wrong.

There was, you did and you are therefore right.

Somewhere in my archives I have pictures of HSTs at Portsmouth Harbour on Cross-Country workings.
 

Bevan Price

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if you're talking about Liverpool trains
81 or 85 with mk2 north of Preston
47/4 south of Preston

Loco-hauled Liverpool/Scotland was eventually replaced by 2 coach 158s, and then by Voyagers (220 or 221) for the last year or so up to withdrawal.
 

Helvellyn

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If we step back to the early 1990s it should be remembered that due to the recession at that time BR cut various bits of capacity out of the network (in a way it could because there was no minimum service requirements that franchises now have) - both services and train formations.

We then moved after the 1992 election towards privatisation, the arrival of shadow Train Operating Units and then privatisation itself. Nobody was predicting massive growth. It was thought that managed decline, stabilisation or possibly modest growth was the order of the day. Companies looked at what they could do with existing assets - faster turnarounds, some frequency increases, etc. A lot of new stock assumptions were made on that basis, so orders for new stock would have reflected what was budgeted for in the bids. And whilst some services were busy others were pretty empty. I can recall travelling on some West Coast and CrossCountry services and having my pick of tables for four, it being very unusual to find someone needing to sit opposite me. Advance Purchase fares were still in their infancy (I remember having to go to the station to book them, my ticket being printed on different stock and given a separate compulsory reservation coupon).

Under the original franchise models there might well have been incentives for TOCs to go out and agree to lease more new stock, or extend existing fleets. But gradually in the 2000s as the first franchises ended first the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA) and then an ever more prescriptive DfT (with an ever hungry Treasury in the background looking for huge premiums or minimum subsidies) throttled innovation and risk taking. We've seen some of the worst effects of that with Direct Awards in the 2010s, where extending an existing franchise for a few years delivers minimal changes because it is hard for the incumbent to get a return on major investment (whether a refurbishment or new stock) and DfT won't sign off on it either because it could affect plans for the franchise.

Chris Green admitted that when he was brought in by Virgin Trains it was too late to alter the designs of the Voyagers (wouldn't have had universal toilets in non-driving coaches; a buffet in place of a shop) and Pendolinos (buffet in place of a shop). For those who complain about trains being first class heavy, again in the late 1990s it was thought the big growth area would be getting business people out of cars or planes and into First Class with fast, frequent services. It was hoped to using yield management to spread the leisure travel load. But nobody foresaw companies cutting back on First Class travel, changing travel habits, etc.

When National Express took on the Midland Mainline it had a fleet of 14 HSTs and was effectively offering an hourly service to Sheffield and Nottingham. It brought in the 170s to try and speed up the longer distance services, but ended up stimulating new demand at the same time. It was able to extend 10 of the 17 units to three-cars but it still wasn't enough - hence their replacement by 4-car 222s in their second franchise (the 9-car 222s were for a Leeds service that the SRA quashed).

Stagecoach nearly got a twenty year franchise for SWT in the early 2000s but it was never let after DfT got cold feet. Even then, they hoped to introduce more Desiros than they did - 100 4-car 450s for outer suburban services and 32 5-car 450s for Windsor side routes. The SRA (them again) quashed that and all SWT got was 110 4-car 450s. The remaining 120 vehicles were delivered as the Class 350/1s for joint use by Silverlink and Central Trains. We had a TOC trying to delivering a 10-car railway on the Windsor side ten years earlier than actually happened!

Everyone moans about the 185s on TPE but it was the SRA (yep!) who cut back the original order. There were also several attempts to extend a number of the units to four coaches before delivery but it never happened because the SRA and DfT wouldn't agree terms. First they missed the opportunity to order more engines (which would have had all four coaches powered) and even when it was realised a trailer could probably be added it never happened.

Remember Virgin wanting to extend all Pendolinos to 11-cars but DfT refusing terms? Remember Virgin wanting to keep a small fleet of 2+5 HSTs (Class 255 Challengers) for Swindon-Birmingham services?

The privatised railway comes in for a lot of grief. Some of it is justified and there are own goals. But British Rail was never controlled or micro-managed to the extent that the current franchises operators are by DfT. It is the private companies that take the flack and it was ultimately why National Express walked away from UK rail (who recalls they once had the most TOCs?). Stagecoach were forced to exit after non-compliant bids, but in some of the things they were non-compliant on they have been proved right (hello SWR!).

But back to topic. Operation Princess was ambitious. In some ways it was naive. It was scoped too tightly in terms of performance. It was also probably a bit too complex for something being shoehorned through Birmingham New Street that way. By the time the franchise was won by Arriva the timetable had been recast and the DfT wanted a very different type of bid. So no opportunity to extend all Voyagers to 6-cars for example
 

JonathanH

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Remember Virgin wanting to keep a small fleet of 2+5 HSTs (Class 255 Challengers) for Swindon-Birmingham services?

They were going to run to Paddington, not just Swindon in Virgin's plans. I think they would have had the service one hour Paddington-Swindon-Cheltenham-Birmingham and Great Western would have had a Cheltenham terminator on the other hour.

VXC ended up having to run the Swindon to Cheltenham service using their 158s as responsibility for the service had passed to them but never got to run the longer distance services because the HSTs were taken by the SRA for St Pancras to Manchester services.

In some ways, I don't think Virgin got the timetable it wanted in September 2002. If anything, the Voyagers are probably worked harder by AXC now on the core routes than VXC managed running to more destinations. It would be interesting to see the total mileage (or utilisation) in the 2002 diagrams and compare it to today.
 

43096

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A part of Operation Princess which was never implemented was the use of short HSTs, with just a single power car and to be known as Pioneers, to provide a regular service between Birmingham and Swindon via Cheltenham. Optimistic times!
It was never going to be single power cars under the Virgin plan - it was intended to be 2+5 sets.

Are you confusing it with the earlier InterCity plan for such sets for XC after East Coast electrification?
 

route101

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Anyone know when XC started more frequent services on ECML between Edinburgh and Newcastle?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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It was never going to be single power cars under the Virgin plan - it was intended to be 2+5 sets.

Are you confusing it with the earlier InterCity plan for such sets for XC after East Coast electrification?

On reflection I was confusing it with the train type proposed for VXC which never materialised, a son-of-HST consisting of a loco-based power car with four trailers in push-pull formation. And @Helvellyn has provided the correct name for them (Challengers). ISTR that some of VXCs HSTs were indeed formed 2+5 before the end and remained so when passing to the revised Arriva run franchise.
 

43096

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ISTR that some of VXCs HSTs were indeed formed 2+5 before the end and remained so when passing to the revised Arriva run franchise.
No, Virgin off-leased all their HSTs before the Cross-Country franchise was terminated - the Challenger fleet went to MML for Project Rio and the rest were stored. The Arriva XC fleet was taken from stored vehicles at the start of their franchise, including a significant number converted from locomotive-hauled stock. There were no HST vehicles that moved directly from the Virgin XC franchise to the Arriva XC franchise.
 

edwin_m

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On reflection I was confusing it with the train type proposed for VXC which never materialised, a son-of-HST consisting of a loco-based power car with four trailers in push-pull formation. And @Helvellyn has provided the correct name for them (Challengers). ISTR that some of VXCs HSTs were indeed formed 2+5 before the end and remained so when passing to the revised Arriva run franchise.
I think you may be mixing these up with the original proposal for what became the Voyagers, which was to have a mix of multiple units and push-pull sets.
 

Bletchleyite

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No, Virgin off-leased all their HSTs before the Cross-Country franchise was terminated - the Challenger fleet went to MML for Project Rio and the rest were stored. The Arriva XC fleet was taken from stored vehicles at the start of their franchise, including a significant number converted from locomotive-hauled stock. There were no HST vehicles that moved directly from the Virgin XC franchise to the Arriva XC franchise.

Well, yes and no. None ever went to Arriva XC, but Virgin did use some 5-car HSTs in the early days during Voyager introduction. Like the GWR examples they went like stink.
 

LOL The Irony

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A part of Operation Princess which was never implemented was the use of short HSTs, with just a single power car and to be known as Pioneers, to provide a regular service between Birmingham and Swindon via Cheltenham. Optimistic times!
I have only ever heard of the Challengers. How would a single power car HST work? Were they going to take redundant Mk3 DVT's once the Pendolino's were in operation?
 

JonathanH

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I have only ever heard of the Challengers. How would a single power car HST work? Were they going to take redundant Mk3 DVT's once the Pendolino's were in operation?

Single power car HSTs were talked about in a number of circles in the late 1990s. I think the idea was that you would have built a cab on one of the carriage ends like an Scotrail / Anglia DBSO. It was talked about as a possibility for Great Western before they went for Adelantes.
 

randyrippley

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Single power car HSTs were talked about in a number of circles in the late 1990s. I think the idea was that you would have built a cab on one of the carriage ends like an Scotrail / Anglia DBSO. It was talked about as a possibility for Great Western before they went for Adelantes.

Modern Railways had an article some time in the late 80s outlining the supposed BR cascade plan, and several routes were planned for single power car HSTs. Those I can remember were Waterloo-Exeter, Bristol-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Crewe, Transpennine, some of the Scottish routes. If anyone has an old copy it would be an interesting read.
Of course it was all based on the assumption of the HSTs being made redundant on IC routes by electrification
 
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