What will Be the future of turn up and go in the Midlands

[VItraveller]

if even a fraction of what’s in the Midlands rail hub gets put into practice, it could lead to a lot more capacity in Birmingham, by building the Boardsley cords, I was wondering how this might affect turn up and go services in the region.
Midlands area has about 6 to 7,000,000 people living in it so hopefully that will be a good base to work with.

I would define turn up and go as around 4 to 5 trains per hour , preferably more at reasonable intervals.
Like the cross city line, or the route from Wolverhampton to Coventry.
I’m hoping services to Bristol, Leicester, Derby and Nottingham can become turn up and go but not sure how feasible that is.

 

[The Planner]

if even a fraction of what’s in the Midlands rail hub gets put into practice, it could lead to a lot more capacity in Birmingham, by building the Boardsley cords, I was wondering how this might affect turn up and go services in the region.
Midlands area has about 6 to 7,000,000 people living in it so hopefully that will be a good base to work with.

I would define turn up and go as around 4 to 5 trains per hour , preferably more at reasonable intervals.
Like the cross city line, or the route from Wolverhampton to Coventry.
I’m hoping services to Bristol, Leicester, Derby and Nottingham can become turn up and go but not sure how feasible that is.

Turn up and go is more about gap between trains, you might well get a third or fourth train per hour to Bristol, Leicester etc, but I wouldn't expect them to be evenly spaced.

 

[cle]

Cross-City will go back to 6tph, which is TUAG.

Wolverhampton itself, Coventry and Intl - you could turn up and not wait too long for a New St, but as said, not evenly spaced, and some stoppers - so you may be checking a timetable regardless.

The Snow Hill lines are also 6tph - or were - down to Kidderminster. So that qualifies, I guess.

 

[Topological]

It would be brilliant if Birmingham to South Wigston was electrified such that there could be a local train every 15 minutes between Birmingham and Leicester. Ideally 2 or more would extend to Nottingham. The Birmingham to Stanstead would run in a gap, leaving just after one stopper. The speed on that journey is slow, so the fact it would follow the previous stopper into Leicester would be no major problem.

Likewise, electrification and appropriate loops should allow a regular service between Birmingham and Derby (again with Nottingham extensions). In this case the Cardiff would be cut back to New Street, but the two North East bound XC would still need slots.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It would be brilliant if Birmingham to South Wigston was electrified such that there could be a local train every 15 minutes between Birmingham and Leicester. Ideally 2 or more would extend to Nottingham. The Birmingham to Stanstead would run in a gap, leaving just after one stopper. The speed on that journey is slow, so the fact it would follow the previous stopper into Leicester would be no major problem.

Likewise, electrification and appropriate loops should allow a regular service between Birmingham and Derby (again with Nottingham extensions). In this case the Cardiff would be cut back to New Street, but the two North East bound XC would still need slots.

If you’re thinking of 4tph local EMU services between Birmingham and both Leicester and Derby alongside longer distance passenger and freight services on those routes you would need some pretty hefty infrastructure upgrades in terms of flyovers and platforms besides loops (probably longer four-track sections including at least two stations) and electrification.

 

[The Planner]

It would be brilliant if Birmingham to South Wigston was electrified such that there could be a local train every 15 minutes between Birmingham and Leicester. Ideally 2 or more would extend to Nottingham. The Birmingham to Stanstead would run in a gap, leaving just after one stopper. The speed on that journey is slow, so the fact it would follow the previous stopper into Leicester would be no major problem.

Likewise, electrification and appropriate loops should allow a regular service between Birmingham and Derby (again with Nottingham extensions). In this case the Cardiff would be cut back to New Street, but the two North East bound XC would still need slots.

That makes no sense, the Stansted would catch the stopper by Nuneaton. Its a service you want at a decent journey time. The XC to/from the NE would be first on the graph.

 

[edwin_m]

For Birmingham-Derby perhaps the 4-track section at Burton could be modified with realignment and new crossovers so fast trains could overtake slower ones at the station, while still allowing both to overtake a freight?

There's also the old route between Water Orton and Kingsbury which would allow slower trains to serve Coleshill Parkway while also being overtaken, which I think has been proposed for the suggested local service. However Derby-bound trains would have to negotiate two flat junction conflicts to get off and back on the main route.

If there were extra trains to Derby I'd also suggest sending at least one Nottingham train per hour via the Stenson to Sheet Stores route, missing Derby and speeding it up by 20min or so.

 

[A S Leib]

I'm guessing that making Droitwich Spa to Worcester turn-up-and-go wouldn't currently be feasible given that the southbound Hereford service is currently four minutes after a Snow Hill lines service, and I think some services (half?) from the Snow Hill lines still go via Shrub Hill which adds five minutes on.

 

[VItraveller]

Cross-City will go back to 6tph, which is TUAG.

Wolverhampton itself, Coventry and Intl - you could turn up and not wait too long for a New St, but as said, not evenly spaced, and some stoppers - so you may be checking a timetable regardless.

The Snow Hill lines are also 6tph - or were - down to Kidderminster. So that qualifies, I guess.

C

I completely forgot about the Snowhill lines, but you’re right of course.
its a shame nothing can be done about speeding up the journey to Hereford as well, West Midlands trains used to run services past Worcester to Great Malvern and I always hope they would extend them to Hereford but they stopped and now terminate at Worcester instead.

 

[Topological]

That makes no sense, the Stansted would catch the stopper by Nuneaton. Its a service you want at a decent journey time. The XC to/from the NE would be first on the graph.

Thanks, I had the XC to Stansted catching around Narborough, but Nuneaton is a bit early. Both stopper and Stansted call at Hinkley (though maybe the Stansted would not if there were 4tph between Birmingham and Leicester)

Maybe 3tph with the XC still serving Hinkley would work? That would not give a clockface timetable, but would allow an uplift in services and be almost turn up and go (and would be turn up and go at Hinkley and Nuneaton). Encouraging load balance from Leicester to/from Birmingham would need work though.

For the Derby line there is definitely more infrastructure needed because of the nature of the NE trains. Removing the present two XC DMUs (Birmingham to Nottingham and Cardiff to Nottingham) still leaves insufficient capacity for a 4tph stopping service on the line. I did think of the Coleshill diversion for the stoppers, but that does mean conflicts.

 

[The Planner]

I'm guessing that making Droitwich Spa to Worcester turn-up-and-go wouldn't currently be feasible given that the southbound Hereford service is currently four minutes after a Snow Hill lines service, and I think some services (half?) from the Snow Hill lines still go via Shrub Hill which adds five minutes on.

Unless you are resignalling Worcester and Droitwich, then its always going to be turn up and wait.

Thanks, I had the XC to Stansted catching around Narborough, but Nuneaton is a bit early. Both stopper and Stansted call at Hinkley (though maybe the Stansted would not if there were 4tph between Birmingham and Leicester)

Maybe 3tph with the XC still serving Hinkley would work? That would not give a clockface timetable, but would allow an uplift in services and be almost turn up and go (and would be turn up and go at Hinkley and Nuneaton). Encouraging load balance from Leicester to/from Birmingham would need work though.

For the Derby line there is definitely more infrastructure needed because of the nature of the NE trains. Removing the present two XC DMUs (Birmingham to Nottingham and Cardiff to Nottingham) still leaves insufficient capacity for a 4tph stopping service on the line. I did think of the Coleshill diversion for the stoppers, but that does mean conflicts.

Passenger service makes no difference towards Derby, its the freight that will stop you.

 

[Topological]

Passenger service makes no difference towards Derby, its the freight that will stop you.

How much 3/4 tracking is needed to handle freight?

Since this is a speculative thread, the use of existing lines with upgrades for metro services is presumably cheaper than a newly built metro line into North East Birmingham/Tamworth.

At least with the Leicester line some of the freight is to the WCML at Nuneaton instead of continuing to Birmingham.