What will happen to the VTEC plans for retaining some MK4s?

[harz99]

By chance yesterday I found myself on an (the only?) East Coast Mk4 set with the recently fitted electronic seat reservation indicators.

My old brain seems to think the fitting of these is because some Mk4 sets are to be retained and used in a sort of open access/commercial operation by VTEC?

With the impending change on the ECML to LNER as the operator would this continue or die?

 

[SaveECRewards]

The seat reservation system is getting fitted to all of the VTEC fleet, even the borrowed HST (NL65).

As for your question it'll be too early to tell, wasn't even sure VTEC knew for certain.

 

[47802]

I think it will be dropped and will be IET only, unless Daft get a bright idea of using some elsewhere.

 

[rich-leeds]

The extra sets were required to run the full potential May 2020 timetable. I think the shortened IC225 sets were destined for a London to Edinburgh fasts. The necessary infrastructure isn't available to run the full May 2020 timetable, so there will be spare rolling stock. Maybe some 225 sets remain at ICEC, and some Bimode IEP sets are instead released to help out on MML? The ICEC IEPs are DfT sets, like the original GWR sets. It's speculation, but one way or another this is an operation with more trains than track once all the IEPs are delivered.

 

[hexagon789]

The plan was for I think nine-sets of seven-coaches (one less TO and PO plus DVT for a limited stop Edinburgh service (I think stopping only at Newcastle and York).

While I appreciate it's less likely they will be kept perhaps, I hope they are and arguably it makes sense as well.

 

[43096]

The seat reservation system is getting fitted to all of the VTEC fleet, even the borrowed HST (NL65).

The message still obviously isn’t going in....

For the hard of understanding NL65 is not borrowed. It is not hired from EMT. It is leased directly by VTEC.

 

[hexagon789]

Edit: I'm sure I read they were going to be 7-car (so as to more closely match IEP acceleration) but it seems the plans were for six to eight 9-car sets. Though that is from Wikipedia so may well be wrong.

 

[43096]

By chance yesterday I found myself on an (the only?) East Coast Mk4 set with the recently fitted electronic seat reservation indicators.

My old brain seems to think the fitting of these is because some Mk4 sets are to be retained and used in a sort of open access/commercial operation by VTEC?

With the impending change on the ECML to LNER as the operator would this continue or die?

The franchise agreement actually states either Mark 4s or HSTs can be retained.

Given that this stock was to provide extra services using the additional path out of King’s Cross and that NR haven’t done the necessary work to make this path available, then I would say retention of these sets is at best unlikely.

 

[hexagon789]

The franchise agreement actually states either Mark 4s or HSTs can be retained.

Given that this stock was to provide extra services using the additional path out of King’s Cross and that NR haven’t done the necessary work to make this path available, then I would say retention of these sets is at best unlikely.

That's a shame, I had hoped some InterCity 225s would be retained.

 

[transmanche]

Edit: I'm sure I read they were going to be 7-car (so as to more closely match IEP acceleration) but it seems the plans were for six to eight 9-car sets. Though that is from Wikipedia so may well be wrong.

Wikipedia is only as good as the sources used. In this case, the sources for that information were the January 2015 edition of The Railway Magazine and the July 2015 edition of Rail magazine.

 

[hexagon789]

Wikipedia is only as good as the sources used. In this case, the sources for that information were the January 2015 edition of The Railway Magazine and the July 2015 edition of Rail magazine.

I think my original 9 x seven-car sets info came from an issue of RAIL.

 

[SaveECRewards]

The message still obviously isn’t going in....

For the hard of understanding NL65 is not borrowed. It is not hired from EMT. It is leased directly by VTEC.

You're right, should have used quotes around 'borrowed'! But VTEC still refer to the set in that way possibly because it's still maintained in Neville Hill and has 8 coaches whereas the other exEMT set (EC64) has been part of the East Coast fleet much longer and has 9 coaches like every other East Coast set.

I would expect NL65 would be the first HST leaving the EC fleet because it's non-standard which is why I was surprised to see it fitted with the electronic reservations.

It is actually quite easy to install these units. They're glued in, communicate with each other by Bluetooth and have a long battery life.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That's a shame, I had hoped some InterCity 225s would be retained.

I agree; I still hope that the IC225 sub-fleet for fast Edinburgh services will still happen eventually, but in the meantime...

The IETs are completely unsuitable for the MML.
A much better solution would be for the MML operator to order a set of dedicated 125mph trains.

I don't want the MML operator to order new 125mph trains, because the MML is not currently electrified. The IETs are unsuitable for the MML as they are due to the low power in diesel mode, BUT is there any other reason why they would be unsuitable? Since the East Coast infrustructure is not ready for the enhanced service Virgin/Stagecoach had planned the full EC fleet (IETs + IC225s) won't be needed to start with so the options are:

1. leave part of the EC fleet idle in sidings until the infrustructure is ready for the upgraded ECML service or
2. find an interim use for the trains EC cannot use, until EC is able to use them

I prefer the second option. Due to the lack of electrification, the class 91s probably cannot be used elsewhere, so the sensible thing in my mind is for the EC operator to hold onto (at least) enough IC225s for the proposed Edinburgh fast services and find a way of using the IETs elsewhere. Re-marshalling the formations of the class 801s and 5-car 800s (EC will be needing most if not all of their 9-car 800s) to produce a mix of class 801s without the diesel engine and 7/8-car class 800s with diesel engines under all but the driving vehicles should provide a fleet with a power:weight ratio that at least matches EMT's IC125 sets. That would provide IETs to replace the MML IC125s, with the Meridian fleet staying put.

Hopefully, by the time the East Coast upgrades are complete the GW electrification to Bristol and Oxford will also have been done, meaning GWR can have a new fleet of electric-only IETs for Cardiff/Bristol/Oxford and release a few bi-modes to allow EC to have its IETs back from the MML. Later; you electrify the MML, order a new fleet of electric trains and cascade the IETs (and Meridians if they have life left in them by that point) to CrossCountry.

Ordering new bi-modes for the MML is madness; there are enough class 800s around they just need a bit of remarshalling and cascading.

 

[Prestige15]

most likely the lack of horsepower when operating in diesel mode means 125mph not achievable. Unless Hitachi add more engines to a 9 car set.

800 Can already do 125 on diesel with GWR 5 or 9 coach.

 

[Domh245]

I don't want the MML operator to order new 125mph trains, because the MML is not currently electrified. The IETs are unsuitable for the MML as they are due to the low power in diesel mode, BUT is there any other reason why they would be unsuitable? Since the East Coast infrustructure is not ready for the enhanced service Virgin/Stagecoach had planned the full EC fleet (IETs + IC225s) won't be needed to start with so the options are:

1. leave part of the EC fleet idle in sidings until the infrustructure is ready for the upgraded ECML service or
2. find an interim use for the trains EC cannot use, until EC is able to use them

I prefer the second option. Due to the lack of electrification, the class 91s probably cannot be used elsewhere, so the sensible thing in my mind is for the EC operator to hold onto (at least) enough IC225s for the proposed Edinburgh fast services and find a way of using the IETs elsewhere. Re-marshalling the formations of the class 801s and 5-car 800s (EC will be needing most if not all of their 9-car 800s) to produce a mix of class 801s without the diesel engine and 7/8-car class 800s with diesel engines under all but the driving vehicles should provide a fleet with a power:weight ratio that at least matches EMT's IC125 sets. That would provide IETs to replace the MML IC125s, with the Meridian fleet staying put.

Hopefully, by the time the East Coast upgrades are complete the GW electrification to Bristol and Oxford will also have been done, meaning GWR can have a new fleet of electric-only IETs for Cardiff/Bristol/Oxford and release a few bi-modes to allow EC to have its IETs back from the MML. Later; you electrify the MML, order a new fleet of electric trains and cascade the IETs (and Meridians if they have life left in them by that point) to CrossCountry.

Ordering new bi-modes for the MML is madness; there are enough class 800s around they just need a bit of remarshalling and cascading.

The lack of power is a fairly major reason, but the real reason your plan will never work is cost. The way in which the 800s have been sourced means that even tweaking the engine software to get a little performance boost costs significant amounts of money, remarshalling them and switching them to a different line will cost about as much as ordering a new fleet in the first place, especially as you would need to start adding engines to previously unengined vehicles. By my estimates, there will be either 137 (or 167*) IEP vehicles with diesel engines on the east coast, the MML needs 9 trains to replace the HSTs like for like, each needing to be 2+7 to get near enough match the HST power to weigh ratio, so that is 63 of the coaches used up, and once the 65 coaches for the 9 car East Coast IETs have been accounted for you are left with either 9 (or 39) powered coaches to split between the various 801s, as well as some of ICEC 5 car 800s.

Similarly, I remain unconvinced by the timings you propose - Bristol and Oxford remain indefinitely postponed, and I can't see a situation in which that electrification gets planned, designed, installed, and commissioned, before NR are able to upgrade the power supply for the Northern ECML, not to mention that (once again) the IEP contract sticks it's nose in and would simply see the necessary number of 800s converted into 801s by removing the engines - there wouldn't be new stock involved.

The MML is (regrettably) not going to be electrified any time soon, it needs new trains that can run to existing timings or better for the next 30-40 years, and they need to make use of the OLE south of Kettering. Pissing £millions up the wall in contract variations with Agility Trains is a far less sensible idea than just ordering some bi-modes for the MML, they could even be designed and built in Derby which I suspect would go down far better with the people of the East Midlands than something put together in the North East to a Japanese design.

*dependant on if the 9 car 801s have a single donkey engine or two, but I'm inclined to think it was just one.

800 Can already do 125 on diesel with GWR 5 or 9 coach.

A youtube video taken from the platform isn't proof of doing 125mph on Diesel. By most accounts, they balance out at about 114mph on Diesel on flat & level track.

 

[cactustwirly]

The lack of power is a fairly major reason, but the real reason your plan will never work is cost. The way in which the 800s have been sourced means that even tweaking the engine software to get a little performance boost costs significant amounts of money, remarshalling them and switching them to a different line will cost about as much as ordering a new fleet in the first place, especially as you would need to start adding engines to previously unengined vehicles. By my estimates, there will be either 137 (or 167*) IEP vehicles with diesel engines on the east coast, the MML needs 9 trains to replace the HSTs like for like, each needing to be 2+7 to get near enough match the HST power to weigh ratio, so that is 63 of the coaches used up, and once the 65 coaches for the 9 car East Coast IETs have been accounted for you are left with either 9 (or 39) powered coaches to split between the various 801s, as well as some of ICEC 5 car 800s.

Similarly, I remain unconvinced by the timings you propose - Bristol and Oxford remain indefinitely postponed, and I can't see a situation in which that electrification gets planned, designed, installed, and commissioned, before NR are able to upgrade the power supply for the Northern ECML, not to mention that (once again) the IEP contract sticks it's nose in and would simply see the necessary number of 800s converted into 801s by removing the engines - there wouldn't be new stock involved.

The MML is (regrettably) not going to be electrified any time soon, it needs new trains that can run to existing timings or better for the next 30-40 years, and they need to make use of the OLE south of Kettering. Pissing £millions up the wall in contract variations with Agility Trains is a far less sensible idea than just ordering some bi-modes for the MML, they could even be designed and built in Derby which I suspect would go down far better with the people of the East Midlands than something put together in the North East to a Japanese design.

*dependant on if the 9 car 801s have a single donkey engine or two, but I'm inclined to think it was just one.



A youtube video taken from the platform isn't proof of doing 125mph on Diesel. By most accounts, they balance out at about 114mph on Diesel on flat & level track.

There are 7 diagrams on Weekdays, 5 on Saturadays & 8 on Sundays, plus there's an extra 2 on Weekdays for the ex GC HSTs.
So I'd think you'd need at least 11 sets.

But for the love of god, please can we not have any more of Bombardiers crap!
I think a dedicated tilting 125mph Bimode from Siemens or Stadler, is the way to go.

 

[Domh245]

There are 7 diagrams on Weekdays, 5 on Saturadays & 8 on Sundays, plus there's an extra 2 on Weekdays for the ex GC HSTs.
So I'd think you'd need at least 11 sets.

But for the love of god, please can we not have any more of Bombardiers crap!
I think a dedicated tilting 125mph Bimode from Siemens or Stadler, is the way to go.

I'd forgotten about the ex GC sets (embarrassingly given that I popped out to see them twice yesterday) but yes, going to 11 sets works out even less favourably for the "shuffle the IEPs" about option.

I don't see what is wrong with Bombardiers stuff now, the build quality seems to be a massive step up from the -stars, and locality will be a massive selling point. Siemens do not offer a 125mph capable bi-mode for the UK market, so it is unlikely to be them, but Stadler could be a good option. Tilting would be a fine thing and a potential way to speed up journey times in lieu of electrification, but I would think that it is incredibly unlikely.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'd forgotten about the ex GC sets (embarrassingly given that I popped out to see them twice yesterday) but yes, going to 11 sets works out even less favourably for the "shuffle the IEPs" about option.

I don't see what is wrong with Bombardiers stuff now, the build quality seems to be a massive step up from the -stars, and locality will be a massive selling point. Siemens do not offer a 125mph capable bi-mode for the UK market, so it is unlikely to be them, but Stadler could be a good option. Tilting would be a fine thing and a potential way to speed up journey times in lieu of electrification, but I would think that it is incredibly unlikely.

It isn't the -stars that I'm talking about, I've just got a vision of a horrible Voyager/Meridian derivative coming out of Bombardiers factory!
I've never known such a badly designed train quite like the Voyager.

If Bombardier can turn out a nice comfortable, well designed train with good build quality, then I'm happy.

 

[Bornin1980s]

The Voyagers and Meridians are an obsolete family of units from Belgium, dating back to before Bombardier acquired the Derby plant. The new bi-mode will owe more to the Electrostar/Aventra family.

 

[gingertom]

in response to post #17. The Secretary of State for Transport has decided there will be no more OLE and a new fleet of bi-modes, so rightly or wrongly, there will be new fleet of bi-modes. I'm sure all major manufacturers are interested in selling their offerings. Which would be best? OT for this thread.

Back on thread. SoS is stating business as usual once LNER takes over. So if VTEC was to retain a batch of 91s and MK4s, I can't see LNER not retaining a batch of 91s & MK4s either.

 

[43096]

There are 7 diagrams on Weekdays, 5 on Saturadays & 8 on Sundays, plus there's an extra 2 on Weekdays for the ex GC HSTs.
So I'd think you'd need at least 11 sets.

But for the love of god, please can we not have any more of Bombardiers crap!

8 weekday HST 2+8 diagrams on the Midland, at least until this week anyway!

Not quite sure why you think Bombardier stock is "crap". It certainly was the case that Bombardier's build quality was poor, but that has been sorted out since they lost the Thameslink order. Build quality on the last batch of 377s and the 387s is actually pretty good.

I think a dedicated tilting 125mph Bimode from Siemens or Stadler, is the way to go.

Really. And how much is that going to cost? A completely bespoke design for a small order quantity is going to make IEP look value for money. That's assuming you can find a manufacturer to actually build such a train.

 

[cactustwirly]

8 weekday HST 2+8 diagrams on the Midland, at least until this week anyway!

Not quite sure why you think Bombardier stock is "crap". It certainly was the case that Bombardier's build quality was poor, but that has been sorted out since they lost the Thameslink order. Build quality on the last batch of 377s and the 387s is actually pretty good.

Really. And how much is that going to cost? A completely bespoke design for a small order quantity is going to make IEP look value for money. That's assuming you can find a manufacturer to actually build such a train.

Hmm, the build quality has improved with the 387s, but it is still mediocre compared to Siemens.
Then you have the Meridians & Voyagers, completely unsuitable for intercity journies.
With not enough seats, awful luggage storage, and a very caustrophobic feel.
I'd much rather have a 158 or 170.

 

[43096]

Hmm, the build quality has improved with the 387s, but it is still mediocre compared to Siemens.
Then you have the Meridians & Voyagers, completely unsuitable for intercity journies.
With not enough seats, awful luggage storage, and a very caustrophobic feel.
I'd much rather have a 158 or 170.

Much of that is down to what the operator has specified, not the builder.

 

[gingertom]

8 weekday HST 2+8 diagrams on the Midland, at least until this week anyway!

Not quite sure why you think Bombardier stock is "crap". It certainly was the case that Bombardier's build quality was poor, but that has been sorted out since they lost the Thameslink order. Build quality on the last batch of 377s and the 387s is actually pretty good.

Really. And how much is that going to cost? A completely bespoke design for a small order quantity is going to make IEP look value for money. That's assuming you can find a manufacturer to actually build such a train.

A batch of pendolinos was touted several years ago, long before CG cancelled the wires. A tilting option would be great but at what cost?
That would filter its way back into ticket prices.

 

[James James]

I don't see what is wrong with Bombardiers stuff now, the build quality seems to be a massive step up from the -stars, and locality will be a massive selling point. Siemens do not offer a 125mph capable bi-mode for the UK market, so it is unlikely to be them, but Stadler could be a good option. Tilting would be a fine thing and a potential way to speed up journey times in lieu of electrification, but I would think that it is incredibly unlikely.

I don't think Stadler have any tilt experience... and while I'm sure they'd love the opportunity to build some tilting trains, I doubt it would be on a very fast timescale. OTOH it looks like they could easily build some non-tilt bi-modes.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

In bombardiers defence the meridians are a vast improvement on the voyagers. You can tell lessons were learnt, what a pity the improvements weren't implemented retrospectively. Shows why prototypes should be built and tested in traffic before commencing a production build.

Plus the bombardier TMS is in my opinion fantastic and is a redeeming feature of these trains.

 

[xotGD]

Lots of posts about a whole variety of things other than Mark IVs / Class 91s. Hey ho.

On topic: If they go off lease, the leasing company will only retain them if they think there is a short to medium term opportunity to get them earning money again. Otherwise, the cutting torch awaits. Conversely, if someone else takes them, LNER (or their successor) will have lost out and be short of stock. Otherwise, LNER will have to pay leasing costs to keep them sat in sidings, just in case they need them down the line (no pun intended).

 

[gingertom]

Lots of posts about a whole variety of things other than Mark IVs / Class 91s. Hey ho.

On topic: If they go off lease, the leasing company will only retain them if they think there is a short to medium term opportunity to get them earning money again. Otherwise, the cutting torch awaits. Conversely, if someone else takes them, LNER (or their successor) will have lost out and be short of stock. Otherwise, LNER will have to pay leasing costs to keep them sat in sidings, just in case they need them down the line (no pun intended).

not exactly off topic. There's been another Open Access application to run services London/Edinburgh against LNER. I wonder what stock they will be looking to use? 91s and MK4s

 

[DanNCL]

not exactly off topic. There's been another Open Access application to run services London/Edinburgh against LNER. I wonder what stock they will be looking to use? 91s and MK4s

Is this the First group operated service that's already been approved, or is there another open access application for the ECML that's not been announced yet?

 

[gingertom]

Is this the First group operated service that's already been approved, or is there another open access application for the ECML that's not been announced yet?

I saw somewhere today that First group want to expand the number of services and have submitted an application for same.