What Would Be The Impact Of Making Bus Fares Free?

[Llandudno]

The £2 bus fare promotion is due to expire at the end of the year, although I am not sure whether any politician (most likely to be Labour by the) would dare scrap it, perhaps increase it to £2.50 maybe…?

But what would the impact be if all stage carriage bus fares were free and what would it cost?

Pros
Encourage more modal shift from cars as everyone would know buses are free
Improving social mobility, improving job prospects
Boost to high streets and hospitality venues
Speed up boarding times, as even with a flat fare, some passengers still fiddle about getting cards/cash/passes out!
No cash handling or bank charges when processing fares
No tickets, no fraud,
No issuing/renewing Concessionary Passes/Child passes/Season Tickets/Scrapping PlusBus

Cons
Cost (How much - is it small beer in the overall scheme of things!)
Overcrowding at certain times requiring uplift in frequency and drivers (hard to resource)
Abstraction from train services
Anti social behaviour on board

Any other thoughts on the pros and cons and any political thoughts on the idea….?





Cons

 

[ls2270]

Absolutely not! Buses would become swamped with feral kids, vagrants etc, completely cancelling out any benefit of the idea as those wishing to use them for legitimate purposes such as commuting to and from work, shopping or going out socially would soon be put off and would go back to their cars or staying at home.

I think the current £2 fare is an excellent compromise as it makes bus travel affordable without the negative issues described above.

 

[Taunton]

Pros
Encourage more modal shift from cars as everyone would know buses are free

This was disproved quite a long time ago, when Met Police officers in London were allowed to travel free on buses, just showing their warrant card. Research after introduction showed it had not made a lot of difference to how they travelled compared to previously. The time saving, routing convenience, and other factors completely outweighed any benefit from not having to pay bus fares.

 

[Ken H]

The £2 bus fare promotion is due to expire at the end of the year, although I am not sure whether any politician (most likely to be Labour by the) would dare scrap it, perhaps increase it to £2.50 maybe…?

But what would the impact be if all stage carriage bus fares were free and what would it cost?

Pros
Encourage more modal shift from cars as everyone would know buses are free
Improving social mobility, improving job prospects
Boost to high streets and hospitality venues
Speed up boarding times, as even with a flat fare, some passengers still fiddle about getting cards/cash/passes out!
No cash handling or bank charges when processing fares
No tickets, no fraud,
No issuing/renewing Concessionary Passes/Child passes/Season Tickets/Scrapping PlusBus

Cons
Cost (How much - is it small beer in the overall scheme of things!)
Overcrowding at certain times requiring uplift in frequency and drivers (hard to resource)
Abstraction from train services
Anti social behaviour on board

Any other thoughts on the pros and cons and any political thoughts on the idea….?





Cons

Nothing is 'free' - its paid for by taxes or borrowing.
So what other government expenditure would you cut to pay for it? Schools? Hospitals? Elderly care?

But people dont shun public transport because of cost. Its because they dont run where and when they want to travel. Or its too slow because a long distance bus is diverted through an estate or village to make up for a cancelled route. Take the Keighley 66. It meanders through Sutton and Crosshills but a 'main road' bus is also needed. Down the route some buses went before they built the Aire Valley dual carriageway. But are there enough passengers to make it pay???

 

[Beccy2002]

The £2 bus fare promotion is due to expire at the end of the year, although I am not sure whether any politician (most likely to be Labour by the) would dare scrap it, perhaps increase it to £2.50 maybe…?

But what would the impact be if all stage carriage bus fares were free and what would it cost?

Pros
Encourage more modal shift from cars as everyone would know buses are free
Improving social mobility, improving job prospects
Boost to high streets and hospitality venues
Speed up boarding times, as even with a flat fare, some passengers still fiddle about getting cards/cash/passes out!
No cash handling or bank charges when processing fares
No tickets, no fraud,
No issuing/renewing Concessionary Passes/Child passes/Season Tickets/Scrapping PlusBus

Cons
Cost (How much - is it small beer in the overall scheme of things!)
Overcrowding at certain times requiring uplift in frequency and drivers (hard to resource)
Abstraction from train services
Anti social behaviour on board

Any other thoughts on the pros and cons and any political thoughts on the idea….?





Cons

Can you imagine the state of the buses if they were free? Who would pay the drivers? Government? So that means higher taxation? How is that fair for people who do not use buses?

And as a previous poster said, by making buses free it would attract all sorts of riff-raff onto them. Imagine homeless people or alcoholics with nowhere better to go? They could just ride the buses all day, making them pretty insufferable for anyone who wants to use them for work/legitimate social purposes etc.

 

[dodecahedron67]

It is far better to have something have a small cost (say 50p, £1, or £2) than free as if people have to pay they treat “it” with more respect than if it’s free..

 

[Llandudno]

Absolutely not! Buses would become swamped with feral kids, vagrants etc, completely cancelling out any benefit of the idea as those wishing to use them for legitimate purposes such as commuting to and from work, shopping or going out socially would soon be put off and would go back to their cars or staying at home.

I think the current £2 fare is an excellent compromise as it makes bus travel affordable without the negative issues described above.

Don’t teenagers in Scotland get free travel, are there more than usual instances of feral kids running riot on buses in Glasgow, Dundee and Edinburgh…?

 

[WAB]

It wouldn't change the fact that in most areas, buses are an irrelevance. They don't get people where they need to go, when they need to go.

 

[Llandudno]

This was disproved quite a long time ago, when Met Police officers in London were allowed to travel free on buses, just showing their warrant card. Research after introduction showed it had not made a lot of difference to how they travelled compared to previously. The time saving, routing convenience, and other factors completely outweighed any benefit from not having to pay bus fares.

Perhaps the Met Officers earn that much that wouldn’t consider travelling by bus, or maybe because they would rather travel incognito on their days off rather than showing their police pass to the driver…?

 

[CarrotPie]

Don’t teenagers in Scotland get free travel, are there more than usual instances of feral kids running riot on buses in Glasgow, Dundee and Edinburgh…?

Under-22s can apply for a card giving them free bus travel in Scotland. Unlike the Oyster Zip card, there doesn't seem to be anything about it being taken away from you for bad behaviour (but I'm sure people will be more than happy to correct me on that).

 

[GusB]

Don’t teenagers in Scotland get free travel, are there more than usual instances of feral kids running riot on buses in Glasgow, Dundee and Edinburgh…?

Any person aged 5 to 21 can apply for a card that permits free bus travel in Scotland:

Under 22s free bus travel | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

Under-22s can apply for a card giving them free bus travel in Scotland. Unlike the Oyster Zip card, there doesn't seem to be anything about it being taken away from you for bad behaviour (but I'm sure people will be more than happy to correct me on that).

From the link above:

General Information
Travel using a NEC or Young Scot NEC is subject to the normal regulations and conditions of carriage of each transport operator.
Your card gives you the same rights as a full-fare paying passenger.

While there is nothing specific mentioned about having the card removed for poor behaviour, individual operators would still be free to take action against any individuals who cause trouble.

***

I do find it rather disappointing that whenever there are proposals such as free travel, many people automatically think about feral youths, homeless, alcoholics and other "undesirables", rather than the positive benefits that it can bring. By making bus travel free, it opens up opportunities for people to go out and find jobs which would otherwise be prohibitively expensive to get to.

Referring back to the Under 22 Scottish scheme, it means that my 17 year-old niece can go out and socialise with friends and get to and from her part-time job without having to rely on the parental taxi. It's beneficial for her because she can save more money for when she heads off to university and it gives her a bit of independence; it's beneficial for her parents because they can actually relax after work!

 

[HullRailMan]

As I understand it, bus usage by concessionary pass holders has still not returned to pre-pandemic levels. This suggests that not having to pay a fare isn’t enough to get people onto a bus, especially when they have an alternative.

I think the current £2 fare is great. Perhaps it would help to have a differential fare, say £1 for urban journeys and £2 for longer distance. This would encourage usage where demand and capacity is greatest, while still offering great value on longer trips. Rail remains more expensive but will generally retain a speed advantage.

 

[Deerfold]

As I understand it, bus usage by concessionary pass holders has still not returned to pre-pandemic levels. This suggests that not having to pay a fare isn’t enough to get people onto a bus, especially when they have an alternative.

I think the current £2 fare is great. Perhaps it would help to have a differential fare, say £1 for urban journeys and £2 for longer distance. This would encourage usage where demand and capacity is greatest, while still offering great value on longer trips. Rail remains more expensive but will generally retain a speed advantage.

There's an experiment in Keighley where buses within the Town Zone (and, additionally, as far as the local Hospital) are £1.

Before the £2 fares, they were up to £2.20 single (more to the Hospital), though with decent day tickets.

 

[Peter0124]

I've had a free bus pass for years, but still prefer using the train as it's quicker and more convenient (I'm nearer a station than a main bus route). I get priv rate travel anyway. Though the bus has been helpful in some circumstances eg getting to and from Glasgow Airport.

 

[Andyh82]

I agree with some posts above, buses are already often overrun with feral teenagers, blasting music out, taking about adult topics with no care in the world, mostly girls, as it is.

The idea that free travel would allow people to access employment etc sounds like the sort of thing a politician would say. In reality the negatives out way these idealistic positives.

I’d be happy with just the £2 fare continuing, although realistically they should probably introduce a higher band for very long distance journeys

 

[JKP]

There have been problems on buses in some places in Scotland with the ‘feral youths’ travelling for free but on the up side many rural buses that I have seen are now busier. The numbers have replaced the over 60s who have not returned.

 

[K4016td]

Current £2 is more-less ideal in the current situation. I am afraid if free travel was to be introduced it will result in a massive decline in an already shrinking service levels due to funding issues, even though this £2 fare may not seem a lot, it contributes significantly in one way or another. Instead of having free bus travel I'd rather see the money spent on a similar price cap scheme applied to the train services.

 

[johncrossley]

"Feral youths" have been travelling for free in London for nearly 20 years. There were worries that kids would run amok but free travel for kids is now accepted and I doubt that will change any time soon, no matter who becomes mayor.

If you want to see if free travel is worth doing, we can see how it works in Tallin, Luxembourg and the various French towns where it operates.

 

[Taunton]

I do find it rather disappointing that whenever there are proposals such as free travel, many people automatically think about feral youths, homeless, alcoholics and other "undesirables",

I wonder to what extent there is even any bus provision in most of Scotland late at night or overnight, when these are indeed issues in London.

 

[Typhoon]

As I understand it, bus usage by concessionary pass holders has still not returned to pre-pandemic levels. This suggests that not having to pay a fare isn’t enough to get people onto a bus, especially when they have an alternative.

I can only speak for the area where I live. Many, probably in the region of 40%-50%, are pensioners. Several reasons for the decline in bus use. Newer pensioner-households are more likely to have a driver and have continued to use the car in the same way they did before retiring, which have have been during the pandemic when bus travel was more awkward. In some cases, one of the retirees may have a disability that makes bus travel more awkward and have a Blue Badge. Older pensioners got out of the habit of bus travel during the pandemic, relatives brought them food or had it delivered, if they couldn't arrange it themselves. With Local Authorities having their budgets cut, subsidised bus services have been reduced - many of which were mainly used by pensioners as eluded to below).

Current £2 is more-less ideal in the current situation. I am afraid if free travel was to be introduced it will result in a massive decline in an already shrinking service levels due to funding issues, even though this £2 fare may not seem a lot, it contributes significantly in one way or another. Instead of having free bus travel I'd rather see the money spent on a similar price cap scheme applied to the train services.

I know that my own bus use has declined. When going out I would be out early, catching a bus before 06:00 to get the miles in, to reach the start of a walk. Looking at my records - very, very little in a three year period, I am nowhere near back to normal and talking to others, I am far from alone.

 

[RT4038]

Referring back to the Under 22 Scottish scheme, it means that my 17 year-old niece can go out and socialise with friends and get to and from her part-time job without having to rely on the parental taxi. It's beneficial for her because she can save more money for when she heads off to university and it gives her a bit of independence; it's beneficial for her parents because they can actually relax after work!

It is always beneficial to get someone else to pay for your lifestyle. Unless you are that someone else of course. The ideological argument.

Presumably there would be, as now, no rights as to whether any particular service is operated or not, so the volume of service provided will only coincidently have to do with passenger demand but all to do with budgets and political considerations of who shouts loudest. In cities and towns with dense bus networks that may not matter too much (but even London, whilst not free, heavily subsidised and lurches from one funding crisis to another) in the provinces away from comprehensive networks there is likely to be more of a problem. In particular 'non-entitled [ to free transport] ' school demand not currently catered for by the public transport network, ( either relatively short distances or parental choice to alternative schools / grammar schools / private schools). This could be very expensive to provide and contribute little to the public transport network as a whole. Perhaps the other countries don't have such a framework of education and so are not quite comparable?

There would likely be a not particularly desirable transfer of patronage from train to bus in some areas (particularly amongst those where cheapness is a consideration above all else), and it would likely threaten the livelihood and thereby upset the taxi industry - at your peril.

It is one thing looking at the existing system/circumstances and the cost of changing from the existing fare structure to free, but the side effects / changed behaviour has to be taken into account as well, which may be far reaching in some areas. These side effects/behavioural changes might not occur immediately, but on a gradual basis and by the time the cost is reckoned may be difficult to reverse, with cuts made elsewhere on the network because they are easier. The OP is rightly thinking of the 'cons' possibility of this.

 

[johncrossley]

(but even London, whilst not free, heavily subsidised and lurches from one funding crisis to another)

For once and for all London is not heavily subsidised, compared to major cities across the world.

 

[RT4038]

For once and for all London is not heavily subsidised, compared to major cities across the world.

Compared to elsewhere in the UK it is. I am comparing the funding situation between London and elsewhere in the UK, and the difficulties that London faces in maintaining that funding. I have no reason to think that these selfsame funding difficulties would occur in the Provinces if their public transport consumed such (relative) funding. We aren't living in another country.

 

[johncrossley]

Compared to elsewhere in the UK it is. I am comparing the funding situation between London and elsewhere in the UK, and the difficulties that London faces in maintaining that funding. I have no reason to think that these selfsame funding difficulties would occur in the Provinces if their public transport consumed such (relative) funding. We aren't living in another country.

Policies and funding can change over time. If someone had said 10 years ago that the Tory government would allow franchising outside London and would implement a nationwide £2 fare cap (about £1.50 in 2014 money), they would have been considered crazy. Free travel for everybody is probably more realistic now than a £1.50 fare cap was then.

 

[RT4038]

Policies and funding can change over time. If someone had said 10 years ago that the Tory government would allow franchising outside London and would implement a nationwide £2 fare cap (about £1.50 in 2014 money), they would have been considered crazy. Free travel for everybody is probably more realistic now than a £1.50 fare cap was then.

Of course, but the situation could equally easily lurch the other way..... Free travel for everybody and precious little service offered is just as realistic.

 

[Dai Corner]

Only a personal perspective, but I've used buses a lot more since I got my concessionary pass.

I've hardly ever seen anyone else from the estate where I live, where most households have at least one car, at the bus stop though. I doubt if free at the point of use buses would encourage modal change.

 

[Bishopstone]

If bus travel were free, would it encourage short hops of two or three stops that would otherwise have been undertaken on foot or by bike? I think this is a relevant consideration given the obesity crisis, and the slow average speed of city bus services.

I wonder if TfL or academics have studied how teens use the bus network in London since free travel was granted: I’m sure the bus has replaced some car journeys (a big plus), but are teens also walking and cycling less?

 

[HullRailMan]

Policies and funding can change over time. If someone had said 10 years ago that the Tory government would allow franchising outside London and would implement a nationwide £2 fare cap (about £1.50 in 2014 money), they would have been considered crazy. Free travel for everybody is probably more realistic now than a £1.50 fare cap was then.

I don’t think free (at the point of use) bus travel for all is a realistic prospect in the slightest. The current scheme is relatively cheap, doesn’t contribute towards every passenger and excludes London, West/South Yorkshire and Manchester, namely significant bus markets. To cover every bus journey, the government would have to spend billions of pounds and likely reduce its rail fare revenue in the process.

There are also practical issues like whether the scheme would cover visitors to the UK - why should wealthy foreign tourists get free travel? You could issue every UK citizen with a pass, but that’s another cost on top.

 

[JRT]

I do remember the cheap bus fares in Sheffield/South Yorkshire in the 1980s and that was on buses with a bus conductor! . Fairly frequent service even on Sunday mornings and low fares eg around 8 p for three miles.

Subsidised by "the rates " so the system was eventually declared illegal by the national government of the day.

immediately after fares returned to a "commercial " rate, traffic chaos returned to Sheffield...

 

[stevieinselby]

As I understand it, bus usage by concessionary pass holders has still not returned to pre-pandemic levels. This suggests that not having to pay a fare isn’t enough to get people onto a bus, especially when they have an alternative.

I think the current £2 fare is great. Perhaps it would help to have a differential fare, say £1 for urban journeys and £2 for longer distance. This would encourage usage where demand and capacity is greatest, while still offering great value on longer trips. Rail remains more expensive but will generally retain a speed advantage.

Quite – for a lot of people, the time and convenience penalties of travelling by bus will outweigh the financial savings. Ensuring that funding and quality control were available to secure improved services if there was no commercial element would be no mean feat – what is manageable in London and potentially a handful of other major metropolitan areas doesn't necessarily translate to the rest of the country.

One of the big problems with the £2 fare cap is that it is skewing the market and it is questionable whether the grant payment scheme would cover any uplift to service provision. More people are now choosing to make more long journeys by bus, despite the longer journeys, because they are such good value, which is leading to overcrowding on some of these routes, but the extra income at £2 a time isn't going to be enough to cover extra vehicles and drivers to increase the frequency. While local routes around town are not seeing much benefit from the deal because the effective fares generally worked out at around £2 single anyway.

Bus companies are likely to be particularly reluctant to invest in additional provision outside of BSIP grants until there is some long-term guarantee to the funding and fares scheme.

I'm not wholly opposed to the idea of free bus fares, and I can certainly see some merit in it for well-defined local town networks even if not for interurban routes, but it would be very challenging and very expensive to get it right.

I wonder to what extent there is even any bus provision in most of Scotland late at night or overnight, when these are indeed issues in London.

Evening services in Scotland tend to be better than in most of England (outside London). That said, so are daytime services!