What would happen if someone illicitly sold refreshments on board a train?

[RailWonderer]

I watched a 1980 Italian film called Cafe Express where this guy illicitly sells espresso on the nightly Milan Naples express while evading train guards and the transport police. It made me laugh a few times and was a touching film. Anyway, what would happen in the UK if someone were to do this?

Also what would the procedure be to get a permit like Railgormet did? They are surely some routes on the network that do not have good catering, or catering at all, and was wondering if there is a chance we see private catering in future.

 

[geoffk]

The Settle Carlisle Development Company provides a trolley service on daily timetabled Northern services and has done so for a number of years. AFAIK this is the only example of catering not provided by the train companies. If the rumours about on-train catering being withdrawn are correct, you would think there would be opportunities for others to step in, particularly on routes attracting large numbers of leisure travellers, but you can't just turn up on the train and sell stuff!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Happens in India all the time.

It's incredibly difficult to make a profit from it. The S&C trolleys are I believe volunteers.

Doing it without permission is a Byelaw breach. You could be prosecuted, though realistically for a first attempt you'd be chucked off:

7. Music, sound, advertising and carrying on a trade​

1. except with written permission from an operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:
   1. sing or
   2. use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound
2. except with written permission from an operator no person on the railway shall:
   
   1. display anything for the purpose of advertising or publicity, or distribute anything or
   2. sell or expose or offer anything for sale or
   3. tout for, or solicit money, reward, custom or employment of any kind

Railway byelaws

www.gov.uk

 

[spyinthesky]

Illicitly would be difficult and probably not very cost effective.
Much the same would apply with getting a permit of some sort on a route where you are not treading on the toes of the big caterers at stations.
Finding a regular route that is not crush loaded but well used might help but this may be only a few journeys a day.

 

[zwk500]

I suspect there are a few trains where you could make a decent margin and have little fear of detection if you made a quick trip to an off licence for some lagers beforehand.

 

[mrcheek]

Might be worth trying on South West services, its not like its difficult to avoid the guard

 

[Egg Centric]

Lots of excellent value tissues available in London from entrepreneurs

 

[Trainbike46]

I doubt you'd have any chance of making money without working with the TOC, simply because the tickets you'd need would eat a substantial portion of any income you'd make.

I used to work for on-train catering in the Netherlands, and our margins were tiny most of the time.

Unless of course you go the whole way and just travel without a ticket, as you'd need to avoid railway staff anyway (I'm not suggesting anyone should actually do this!!)

 

[gordonthemoron]

Thameslink should be fairly easy

 

[yorksrob]

The Settle Carlisle Development Company provides a trolley service on daily timetabled Northern services and has done so for a number of years. AFAIK this is the only example of catering not provided by the train companies. If the rumours about on-train catering being withdrawn are correct, you would think there would be opportunities for others to step in, particularly on routes attracting large numbers of leisure travellers, but you can't just turn up on the train and sell stuff!

I remember a few years ago, a previous incarnation of the station buffet at Middlesborough ran a buffet trolley along crowded Whitby services.

 

[mrcheek]

On a side note, in the early 1980s, as Merrymakers were being phased out, BR decided to save on costs by removing the buffet car from such trips.
There were a few enterprising guards who would buy a couple of crates of soft drinks, and a box of Mars bars, and sell them at a shocking profit margin!

 

[D6130]

I watched a 1980 Italian film called Cafe Express where this guy illicitly sells espresso on the nightly Milan Naples express while evading train guards and the transport police.

This is still very much a thing in Southern Italy, especially on InterCity trains radiating from Napoli. Our Neaopolitan friends are renowned for being crafty entrepreneurs with a healthy (?) disrespect for laws and regulations. They know that if they can sneak on board a train with a journey time of several hours and no catering facilities on board and walk up and down the corridors with a cool box full of bottles of mineral water, cans of beer and sandwiches made from cheap supermarket burger buns filled with processed ham and cheese, that they will make a bob or two - especially from foreign tourists and backpackers - and the on-board crew usually turn a blind eye in return for a free sandwich and bottle of water. If the Police should board the train, the unofficial vendors are usually very adept at hiding their wares and acting like normal passengers.

The S&C trolleys are I believe volunteers.

No, the S&C trolley vendors are paid and receive a small commission on sales. It's easy to confuse the Settle & Carlisle Railway Development Company - which is a commercial concern and operates the trolleys with the permission of Northern Trains - with the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle line, which is a voluntary organisation. However the two work closely on a number of projects.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, the S&C trolley vendors are paid and receive a small commission on sales. It's easy to confuse the Settle & Carlisle Railway Development Company - which is a commercial concern and operates the trolleys with the permission of Northern Trains - with the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle line, which is a voluntary organisation. However the two work closely on a number of projects.

I sit corrected. Amazed they make money even at minimum wage, though I suppose tourists are more likely to spend than commuters.

 

[Dai Corner]

It was rumoured that some BR stewards brought their own food and drink on board and sold those instead of the official supplies.

 

[D6130]

Amazed they make money even at minimum wage, though I suppose tourists are more likely to spend than commuters.

They also sell things like line guides and other souvenirs....as well as home-made ice cream from Appleby in a cool box.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve often wondered about a cooler box full of (warm) bacon rolls, knocking them out at £3 a go on a busyish commuter service in the morning, and returning with same cooler box full of cold Peroni / Asahi at £3 a go.…

 

[D6130]

I’ve often wondered about a cooler box full of (warm) bacon rolls, knocking them out at £3 a go on a busyish commuter service in the morning, and returning with same cooler box full of cold Peroni / Asahi at £3 a go.…

Absolutely brilliant idea! Your talent and entrepreneurship is truly wasted as a senior train services planner!

 

[zwk500]

Absolutely brilliant idea! Your talent and entrepreneurship is truly wasted as a senior train services planner!

Assuming, of course, that nobody decides to just barge him down and run off with the cooler box...

 

[D6130]

Assuming, of course, that nobody decides to just barge him down and run off with the cooler box...

Ah, yes....hadn't thought of that!

 

[Howardh]

With apps and the like, could it be possible if you knew the stations that your service was stopping at, to order in advance from either that station's cafe (where gated) or some deliveroo service where not gated to meet your train and hand over your food and drinks?

So their profit is the amount they charge for "delivery"? How "legal" would it be for a company outside the railways to offer that service? An example would be that excellent chippy at Arnside bringing your order to the train - win win all-round (apart from the other pax having to drool over the aroma of fish and chips)?!

 

[zwk500]

With apps and the like, could it be possible if you knew the stations that your service was stopping at, to order in advance from either that station's cafe (where gated) or some deliveroo service where not gated to meet your train and hand over your food and drinks?

So their profit is the amount they charge for "delivery"? How "legal" would it be for a company outside the railways to offer that service? An example would be that excellent chippy at Arnside bringing your order to the train - win win all-round (apart from the other pax having to drool over the aroma of fish and chips)?!

Certainly stories in the press of people ordering Pizza or whatnot to meet trains, especially when delayed. Whether the railway would be quite as happy to wave them through the station if it was a regular occurrence I don't know.

 

[Howardh]

Certainly stories in the press of people ordering Pizza or whatnot to meet trains, especially when delayed. Whether the railway would be quite as happy to wave them through the station if it was a regular occurrence I don't know.

Thanks, I'm glad it's happened; and at gated stations I suppose the answer is to give trusted firms a "pass" - basically a platform ticket. They may want to make a monthly charge which would be small and added on to the customer's bill? So an app could have all the delivery firms listed near the stations you are passing.

My initial thoughts were London Westmidlands trains passing through Milton Keynes/Rugby etc where there are food/drink outlets and I'm sure they could pre-pack orders and deliver for pax given 20-30 mins advance notice?

One worry though is the train gets held up while orders are being delivered, especially if they are wrong!

 

[zwk500]

I personally can't see it being worth Deliveroo's time to offer any sort of guarantee on such a service. It's one thing if a customer asks as a one-off, but trying to meet trains on a regular basis is just going to end up lots of missed deliveries causing refunds and reputational damage.
The rail companies will also be wary of the station cafe having to try and deliver 150 coffees to a morning commuter train in a 60 second dwell time. 'I've got 67 black coffees, 30 lattes and 2 oatmilk skinny cappuccinos for the 08.40 to Euston!'

 

[SargeNpton]

It was rumoured that some BR stewards brought their own food and drink on board and sold those instead of the official supplies.

It wasn't a rumour - and plenty got disciplined when they were caught doing it.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

With apps and the like, could it be possible if you knew the stations that your service was stopping at, to order in advance from either that station's cafe (where gated) or some deliveroo service where not gated to meet your train and hand over your food and drinks?

So their profit is the amount they charge for "delivery"? How "legal" would it be for a company outside the railways to offer that service? An example would be that excellent chippy at Arnside bringing your order to the train - win win all-round (apart from the other pax having to drool over the aroma of fish and chips)?!

I think the Indian Railways have or had a service whereby you order your curry and rice from someone at the first station who then phones the order through to the caterers at the next station and it's delivered to your seat. Sounds a great idea...

 

[Howardh]

I think the Indian Railways have or had a service whereby you order your curry and rice from someone at the first station who then phones the order through to caters at the next station and it's delivered to your seat. Sounds a great idea...

At any stop don't locals come to the train with produce that you buy and they pass it through the window?

But as for catering on UK trains, if the goods were cheaper then more would buy I'm sure, but would that be enough to make a profit? I'm all for a vending machine, I'm sure space could be made, after all space has been made for enlarged toilets (so where there's a will there's a way) and if you could buy soft drinks and a chocolate etc I'm sure it would be well used - if the price wasn't extortionate.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

At any stop don't locals come to the train with produce that you buy and they pass it through the window?

I think so, but I think the order in advance option is the official railway one, whereas the others are more opportunistic entrepreneurs.

 

[Howardh]

I think so, but I think the order in advance option is the official railway one, whereas the others are more opportunistic entrepreneurs.

Pity they are nowhere near the M6 when that's at a stand-still!!

 

[TheSeeker]

One of the 1940s films with Charters and Caldicott has them buying newspapers and drinks through the window of their compartment from a seller on the platform. York I think.

 

[6Gman]

One of the 1940s films with Charters and Caldicott has them buying newspapers and drinks through the window of their compartment from a seller on the platform. York I think.

Platform trolleys were a feature of many major stations, certainly well into the 1960s.

I can recall them at Chester for example.