what would the cost per mile of that be for a typical train?

[starrymarkb]

The biggest cost by far for an airline is Fuel, A 180 seat A320 for example will burn about 2tonnes per hour averaged over a flight.

Assuming a Ground Speed of 500mph that means the A320 will burn 4kgs per mile on average so ~ £4 per mile cost.

With the railways the biggest cost is infrastructure, so what would the cost per mile of that be for a typical train?

 

[edwin_m]

Very difficult to work it out because a lot of the infrastructure would be needed even if only one train ran every day, but the marginal infrastructure cost of running an extra train on a route is almost zero unless it triggers the need for some extra work to increase capacity.

 

[NSEFAN]

Very difficult to work it out because a lot of the infrastructure would be needed even if only one train ran every day, but the marginal infrastructure cost of running an extra train on a route is almost zero unless it triggers the need for some extra work to increase capacity.

Do Network Rail not charge on a per-train basis, or do they have some kind of BOGOF offers for regular customers?

 

[edwin_m]

Do Network Rail not charge on a per-train basis, or do they have some kind of BOGOF offers for regular customers?

They do charge on a per-train basis but that is only the "variable track access charge" which reflects the marginal cost of running a train. It's around 10p per vehicle-mile depending on train type. There is also a capacity charge which I don't know much about but I presume is levied at busier places and times.

However there is also a "fixed track access charge" which each TOC pays (but not open access operators), and the direct Government grant to Network Rail. These aren't related to train mileage but are necessary for Network Rail to break even, so I presume are intended to cover all the fixed costs NR would incur to keep the railway in a workable state but with no trains.

 

[HSTEd]

This is one of the problems with the present fragmented system.
It is difficult to work out what anything actually costs, which prompts endless discussions that would never have been necessary under BR.

 

[edwin_m]

It happened under BR too. See, for example, how Beeching attributed costs and revenues to individual branch lines.

 

[LexyBoy]

Around £140m, based on a ballpark £2m per carriage.

 

[rebmcr]

Around £140m, based on a ballpark £2m per carriage.

Per mile?

 

[edwin_m]

I think that's interpreting per mile of train as having a train a mile long.

 

[millemille]

The biggest cost by far for an airline is Fuel, A 180 seat A320 for example will burn about 2tonnes per hour averaged over a flight.

Assuming a Ground Speed of 500mph that means the A320 will burn 4kgs per mile on average so ~ £4 per mile cost.

With the railways the biggest cost is infrastructure, so what would the cost per mile of that be for a typical train?

What leads you to think that track access charges are the greatest ppm cost associated with running a train?

The TOC I work for pays the equivalent of ~£4 per mile per unit in leasing costs alone. You've then got maintenance costs, payroll, training & competency etc etc etc.....

Effectively the "cost" of operating a train on a ppm basis is calculated by knowing a TOC's annual turnover, subtracting net profit for the same period and dividing the result by the number of miles the TOC's units cover in the same in the period.

The only cost a TOC has is associated with running trains profitably so everything has to be viewed as an element of the ppm cost.

 

[chorleyjeff]

This is one of the problems with the present fragmented system.
It is difficult to work out what anything actually costs, which prompts endless discussions that would never have been necessary under BR.

My understanding is that no one ever knew the actual cost of each train journey. And the operating people had little regard to the costs of running the railway. they just ran trains and improvised as they saw fit. Even Doctor Beching could only guess at operating costs.

 

[HSTEd]

My understanding is that no one ever knew the actual cost of each train journey. And the operating people had little regard to the costs of running the railway. they just ran trains and improvised as they saw fit. Even Doctor Beching could only guess at operating costs.

Yes, which saved a lot of pointless book work that didn't really tell you anything useful.
Now we have hordes of accountants to tell us things we would never have worried about, and Lawyers trying to pin down figures that are essentially un-pinnable.

 

[DownSouth]

I think that's interpreting per mile of train as having a train a mile long.

It would be cheaper than that, as the typical train a mile long would be 2-4 locomotives, a crew car, maybe a inline refuelling wagon and a whole lot of freight wagons of some kind.

It also wouldn't be in Britain!

 

[Metrailway]

There was a breakdown on the average cost of operating a train per km in the McNulty report.

IIRC the average cost per passenger km was around 20-25 pence.

 

[millemille]

There was a breakdown on the average cost of operating a train per km in the McNulty report.

IIRC the average cost per passenger km was around 20-25 pence.

That sounds realistic....

Using the formula I suggested earlier it appears to cost the TOC I work for ~£35 per mile to operate a train.

Your suggested figure from the McNulty report is equivalent to ~35 pence per passenger mile, so if we were to carry an average of 100 passenger for every mile our fleets operate we've broken even. That seems realistic when you look at the peak and off peak loadings.

This is further backed up by dividing the cost of an annual season ticket from Dartford to London by the number of miles you could reasonably expect that season ticket to be used to travel for (daily return journey mileage multiplied by 230 (typical number of working days per year)+15% for leisure use ) and you get a figure of ~38 pence per passenger mile.

Given that we make ~3% net profit the numbers seem viable.