What's it like driving for Southeastern?

[Southerner.]

It would be greatly appreciated to hear your views on what it's like driving and working for SE.

I'm interested in knowing about depots around London, specifically: Grove Park, Orpington and Victoria. But of course if you'd like to share your views on the other depots it may be helpful to others.

Also, if you don't mind sharing specific to the 3 depots:

1. Currently how long is the training for a Trainee Driver?
2. What routes do you drive?
3. What hours is the earliest start and latest finish?
4. Is there plenty RDW generally? And how many days in a row can you do?
5. Are there any pros and cons between those depots? If you had to choose, which would you prefer and why?

Thank you for taking the time to share your views and knowledge

 

[Economist]

How come only SE? If you're sitting on an offer you might as well take it, however if you're just applying, consider the following:

SWR at Waterloo pay you £20k more, rest day working is paid at a far better rate and you'll have a second member of staff onboard.
GTR Thameslink at Orpington/Gillingham pay £7k more and their Sunday rate is one of the best in the country.
Southern/Gatwick Express at Selhurst/Victoria/Norwood/London Bridge pay around £9k more.
Since you've mentioned Victoria, are other Central London depots on option? Avanti will taxi you in for very early starts/very late finishes at Euston.

Routes and traction are listed on the Driver Depot Routes and Traction sticky thread at the top of the Railway Jobs and Careers page.

Earliest starts and latest finishes vary by depot, since we're heading towards a 24-hour railway you might as well expect shifts around the clock.

Don't bother with RDW in your first year as a qualified driver, your eyes will be on stilts anyway, why make life more difficult? Never rely on it being available. I never did any whilst driving suburban DOO work, I've only started dipping my toe in the RDW water now I'm on guarded intercity work.

 

[whoosh]

Previous traincrew diagrams are here as a freedom of information request:

August 2022 Train Crew Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to SE Trains Limited

I would like to have the August 2022 timetable period Train Crew diagrams for all driver and conductor depots. Yours faithfully, Michael W

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[greatkingrat]

I know the Overground has just taken on 9 qualified drivers at New Cross Gate, and 7 of them were from Southeastern, which perhaps gives a clue to the conditions over there.

 

[Horizon22]

You can see all the route cards [here] which answers 2 and probably 3 somewhat (expect latest 1am finishes & earliest 3am starts with a few nights thrown in)

To answer question 1, trainee drivers normally take 12-18 months but that is dependent on instructor availability. As for 5, depends what you're looking for. It's all intensive metro, DOO work. As a whole Southeastern is one of the worst paid TOCs (and not great at T&Cs) either for London & SE and is constantly churning drivers over to GTR/Overground/SWR and other long-distance TOCs with London depots.

If your comparing to other TOCs, then it's something of a no-brainer, but if you're just interested and want to become a driver regardless and are in the process, then its better than not being a driver I suppose.

 

[craigybagel]

To be fair, as the person who created and maintains the Driver Route & Traction thread I'll readily admit that for the SE metro depots it isn't as helpful as I'd like - in most cases it just says "all metro routes", often with or without the Bromley North branch. It's a vast and complicated network and well away from my own patch so that's pretty much all I've got to go on.

Given I have no experience down there I can't directly answer OPs questions, except to say that remarkably few people who enter the train driving profession regret it - and that the worst day in this business is still usually a lot better than the best day in most other professions......

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair, as the person who created and maintains the Driver Route & Traction thread I'll readily admit that for the SE metro depots it isn't as helpful as I'd like - in most cases it just says "all metro routes", often with or without the Bromley North branch. It's a vast and complicated network and well away from my own patch so that's pretty much all I've got to go on.

Given I have no experience down there I can't directly answer OPs questions, except to say that remarkably few people who enter the train driving profession regret it - and that the worst day in this business is still usually a lot better than the best day in most other professions......

All metro routes is basically the following:

• London Terminals to Dartford/Gravesend via 3 ways:
  • via Greenwich and Woolwich
  • via Bexleyheath
  • via Sidcup
• Orpington (via Grove Park)
• Orpington (via Penge East)
• Hayes Line

Not sure how many sign the Catford Loop now. Bromley North branch only some depots sign.

 

[Class2ldn]

Always used to be just Grove Park that sign the Bromley North branch, pretty sure it hasn't changed.

 

[craigybagel]

All metro routes is basically the following:

• London Terminals to Dartford/Gravesend via 3 ways:
  • via Greenwich and Woolwich
  • via Bexleyheath
  • via Sidcup
• Orpington (via Grove Park)
• Orpington (via Penge East)
• Hayes Line

Not sure how many sign the Catford Loop now. Bromley North branch only some depots sign.

Always used to be just Grove Park that sign the Bromley North branch, pretty sure it hasn't changed.

Thanks both. Do the stopping services to Sevenoaks via Orpington count?

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks both. Do the stopping services to Sevenoaks via Orpington count?

Yes I included that in "Orpington via Grove Park" but could easily read Orpington/Sevenoaks.

 

[saracen]

The SE drivers I know are very unhappy.

Pay deal long overdue and poor management

 

[Horizon22]

Pay deal long overdue and poor management

Surely true for all TOCs though; yes Southeastern has issues, but this isn't isolated to just them.

 

[Samzino]

Surely true for all TOCs though; yes Southeastern has issues, but this isn't isolated to just them.

Agreed but they and GA seem to have quite a bit of disparity between the other London TOCs for example.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

Thanks both. Do the stopping services to Sevenoaks via Orpington count?

Only metro depots that go Sevenoaks are, Grove Park, Charing Cross, Orpington, Victoria and link dependant slade green. Then depots like tonbridge also sign it and also gillingham. So there’s a lot to account for

 

[craigybagel]

Yes I included that in "Orpington via Grove Park" but could easily read Orpington/Sevenoaks.

Only metro depots that go Sevenoaks are, Grove Park, Charing Cross, Orpington, Victoria and link dependant slade green. Then depots like tonbridge also sign it and also gillingham. So there’s a lot to account for

Thanks, when I get chance I'll update the drivers knowledge thread to be more descriptive.

In the meantime I'll let people get back to discussing the pros and cons of life at SE.

 

[43066]

All metro routes is basically the following:

• London Terminals to Dartford/Gravesend via 3 ways:
  • via Greenwich and Woolwich
  • via Bexleyheath
  • via Sidcup
• Orpington (via Grove Park)
• Orpington (via Penge East)
• Hayes Line

Not sure how many sign the Catford Loop now. Bromley North branch only some depots sign.

This is basically right, with metro technically going out as far as Gravesend and Sevenoaks as you’ve subsequently noted. It’s a complex picture in terms of who does what, with some metro area depots mix metro and mainline, (eg Grove Park) some mostly mainline depots (eg Tonbridge) cover occasional metro turns. Also other oddities like the senior link at Slade Green signing the Medway valley line and 375s.

Bromley North “poppers” are Grove Park only.

Some also sign the route from Herne Hill into Blackfriars.

Some (those who sign the entire Catford Loop) also sign from Bickley junction to Sevenoaks via Swanley and Otford.

 

[Southerner.]

Thank you all for taking the time to share.

I suppose my reason for this thread is partly to help towards making the right decision.

It's clear there's a disparity in pay and T&Cs between SE and other TOCs. And yes, joining one of the other TOCs is preferable considering the compromises I will endure due to salary and conditions. But, unfortunately, I don't know if or when I might have an opportunity to join one of those TOCs.

Just like many other people, I have attempted time and again for what seems like an eternity. And in my years of going through the process I passed the psychometrics several times – I turned down the first offer due to circumstances at the time, then I was in a talent pool with another TOC (no movement for several years then it expired), and later on I was fortunate to have an offer from 2 TOCs within a short time of each, but the offer I decided on ended up being withdrawn due to the pandemic.

Now I find myself thinking – by joining SE I could be out driving before another opportunity presents itself – perhaps this is not the right way around it, but at this time I'm in two minds (not getting younger after all).

I would very much like to enjoy this journey and the experience, but I must be realistic. If I'm to pursue this route, and if the pay and conditions don't improve at SE after a few years productive, then it's likely I will be more inclined to look elsewhere (just as others have done I suppose).

Taking everything into account this matter has left me thinking:

1. Is pay and conditions likely to improve at SE in order to retain its staff?
2. Aside from a clean/safe record and good conduct, would having experience in SE's intensive metro work make a Driver more favourable to other TOCs?
3. Apart from DOO, what is it exactly that makes SE 'intensive'?
4. To an extent there shouldn't be age discrimination with Trainees, but, depending on one's age, would it be best to wait for an opportunity to arise at their preferred TOC and location, or should one just grasp whichever offer as long as their circumstances suit?

 

[baz962]

Thank you all for taking the time to share.

I suppose my reason for this thread is partly to help towards making the right decision.

It's clear there's a disparity in pay and T&Cs between SE and other TOCs. And yes, joining one of the other TOCs is preferable considering the compromises I will endure due to salary and conditions. But, unfortunately, I don't know if or when I might have an opportunity to join one of those TOCs.

Just like many other people, I have attempted time and again for what seems like an eternity. And in my years of going through the process I passed the psychometrics several times – I turned down the first offer due to circumstances at the time, then I was in a talent pool with another TOC (no movement for several years then it expired), and later on I was fortunate to have an offer from 2 TOCs within a short time of each, but the offer I decided on ended up being withdrawn due to the pandemic.

Now I find myself thinking – by joining SE I could be out driving before another opportunity presents itself – perhaps this is not the right way around it, but at this time I'm in two minds (not getting younger after all).

I would very much like to enjoy this journey and the experience, but I must be realistic. If I'm to pursue this route, and if the pay and conditions don't improve at SE after a few years productive, then it's likely I will be more inclined to look elsewhere (just as others have done I suppose).

Taking everything into account this matter has left me thinking:

1. Is pay and conditions likely to improve at SE in order to retain its staff?
2. Aside from a clean/safe record and good conduct, would having experience in SE's intensive metro work make a Driver more favourable to other TOCs?
3. Apart from DOO, what is it exactly that makes SE 'intensive'?
4. To an extent there shouldn't be age discrimination with Trainees, but, depending on one's age, would it be best to wait for an opportunity to arise at their preferred TOC and location, or should one just grasp whichever offer as long as their circumstances suit?

How old are you. I started as a trainee at 48 years old. As to everything else , just accept the job and worry about it all later. You turned down a job due to personal reasons , sat in a pool which expired and then had an offer pulled due to the pandemic. I wouldn't rely on getting too many offers and you should be able to move relatively easy as a qualified driver.

 

[dctraindriver]

I’d join, get trained, attempt to keep a clean safety of the line record, after about 18 months start applying for the other TOCs which will be looking for replacing swathes of drivers coming up for retirement. Good luck.

 

[Horizon22]

Now I find myself thinking – by joining SE I could be out driving before another opportunity presents itself – perhaps this is not the right way around it, but at this time I'm in two minds (not getting younger after all).

I would very much like to enjoy this journey and the experience, but I must be realistic. If I'm to pursue this route, and if the pay and conditions don't improve at SE after a few years productive, then it's likely I will be more inclined to look elsewhere (just as others have done I suppose).

Taking everything into account this matter has left me thinking:

1. Is pay and conditions likely to improve at SE in order to retain its staff?
2. Aside from a clean/safe record and good conduct, would having experience in SE's intensive metro work make a Driver more favourable to other TOCs?
3. Apart from DOO, what is it exactly that makes SE 'intensive'?
4. To an extent there shouldn't be age discrimination with Trainees, but, depending on one's age, would it be best to wait for an opportunity to arise at their preferred TOC and location, or should one just grasp whichever offer as long as their circumstances suit?

Despite all that has been said, if you have the offer, you should take it. As you say you can move on elsewhere once qualified.

1. Who knows - you'd think Southeastern would consider it as churn is not beneficial (and costly) but at the moment such things are negotiated via the DfT who don't want to spend as much money on the railway and its been something of a deadlock for near 2 years now.
2. Not necessarily.
3. The intensity of being a London & SE operator on the metro routes, so intensive stops (every 3-4 minutes), short turnarounds, likelihood of delays and cautionary aspects and also passenger conduct (revenue protection is quite poor on Southeastern), so expect things like passcoms, egresses pulled, BTP attendance etc.
4. I would still grasp whatever opportunity you have, then reassess in 18-24 months.

Driver vacancies are still highly competitive and you must be an incredibly good candidate to have had the opportunities you've had before and to turn them down but your luck may run out!

 

[bramling]

Thank you all for taking the time to share.

I suppose my reason for this thread is partly to help towards making the right decision.

It's clear there's a disparity in pay and T&Cs between SE and other TOCs. And yes, joining one of the other TOCs is preferable considering the compromises I will endure due to salary and conditions. But, unfortunately, I don't know if or when I might have an opportunity to join one of those TOCs.

Just like many other people, I have attempted time and again for what seems like an eternity. And in my years of going through the process I passed the psychometrics several times – I turned down the first offer due to circumstances at the time, then I was in a talent pool with another TOC (no movement for several years then it expired), and later on I was fortunate to have an offer from 2 TOCs within a short time of each, but the offer I decided on ended up being withdrawn due to the pandemic.

Now I find myself thinking – by joining SE I could be out driving before another opportunity presents itself – perhaps this is not the right way around it, but at this time I'm in two minds (not getting younger after all).

I would very much like to enjoy this journey and the experience, but I must be realistic. If I'm to pursue this route, and if the pay and conditions don't improve at SE after a few years productive, then it's likely I will be more inclined to look elsewhere (just as others have done I suppose).

Taking everything into account this matter has left me thinking:

1. Is pay and conditions likely to improve at SE in order to retain its staff?
2. Aside from a clean/safe record and good conduct, would having experience in SE's intensive metro work make a Driver more favourable to other TOCs?
3. Apart from DOO, what is it exactly that makes SE 'intensive'?
4. To an extent there shouldn't be age discrimination with Trainees, but, depending on one's age, would it be best to wait for an opportunity to arise at their preferred TOC and location, or should one just grasp whichever offer as long as their circumstances suit?

I would just go with Southeastern, and if needs be look at moving a few years down the line. Having a proven history of being able to successfully do metro-type work certainly will not be frowned upon.

 

[Evolution]

I’d always advise getting a key wherever you can and go from there. Whilst Southeastern isn’t exactly a desirable TOC to work for due to DOO/low pay and intense work, it will give you a good grounding.

If you can do a couple of years and keep a clean license you can then begin exploring other options.

Focus on training- passing out- keeping a clean license for 18 months-2 years then apply to better paying TOCs/FOCs.

Best of luck.

 

[Economist]

Take the offer that's in front of you, once you've done three years qualified you can think about other options if needs be.