What's the point of the Harrogate-London LNER service?

[lh33]

Hi everyone,

I've always wondered why this service exists, let alone is *relatively* frequent. For whom does it cater to? Anyone know the history behind this service? From my experience Harrogate is pretty well connected to Leeds (and to a lesser extent York). Beyond being a touristy kind of place, what's the point to a connection to London?

Thanks

 

[Retorus]

To provide a direct link between Harrogate and London I imagine.

 

[43066]

To cater for well heeled commuters who work part of the week in London. I used to work with someone in this category who did three days a week in London (he had a flat there) and had a main family home in Harrogate.

 

[james_the_xv]

Hi everyone,

I've always wondered why this service exists, let alone is *relatively* frequent. For whom does it cater to? Anyone know the history behind this service? From my experience Harrogate is pretty well connected to Leeds (and to a lesser extent York). Beyond being a touristy kind of place, what's the point to a connection to London?

Thanks

Platform space at Leeds is at a premium, so allows a unit to be out the way without taking up space at Leeds for a prolonged period of time/shunting to Neville Hill.

 

[lh33]

To provide a direct link between Harrogate and London I imagine.

Well obviously, but there are plenty of other places with far higher populations in Yorkshire (Barnsley, Huddersfield etc) with no such connection. It just seems like an odd service to exist

 

[jfollows]

I suspect a lot of the people who want to go to Harrogate from London are also the type who don’t want to change trains en route.

 

[800001]

Hi everyone,

I've always wondered why this service exists, let alone is *relatively* frequent. For whom does it cater to? Anyone know the history behind this service? From my experience Harrogate is pretty well connected to Leeds (and to a lesser extent York). Beyond being a touristy kind of place, what's the point to a connection to London?

Thanks

It’s not relatively frequent it’s roughly every 2 hours.

It allow people to travel direct without changing trains. And when I’ve travelled has often been well loaded from Harrogate, with a fair load staying on at Leeds to continue.

 

[43066]

Well obviously, but there are plenty of other places with far higher populations in Yorkshire (Barnsley, Huddersfield etc) with no such connection. It just seems like an odd service to exist

But those places won’t have higher populations in the category of people the Harrogate service caters to.

 

[oscarthecat92]

I work a couple of days in London every month and always aim to get the direct services to Kings Cross from Harrogate. It’s just easier as there’s no missed connections and you can get the laptop out as soon as you get on and start working.

 

[dk1]

Original l plan was for it to be an extension from the York direction.

It’s an excellent idea but unfortunately has suffered consistently through the ASLEF dispute and always will be an easy target through any driver shortages.

 

[JonathanH]

Platform space at Leeds is at a premium, so allows a unit to be out the way without taking up space at Leeds for a prolonged period of time/shunting to Neville Hill.

The units would just go back to London instead. Effectively, LNER are leasing one of their Azumas to cover the Harrogate workings.

Well obviously, but there are plenty of other places with far higher populations in Yorkshire (Barnsley, Huddersfield etc) with no such connection.

Harrogate is a destination for conferences and holidays in a way that Barnsley and Huddersfield aren't.

Population doesn't directly correlate to long distance demand.

 

[dk1]

The units would just go back to London instead. Effectively, LNER are leasing one of their Azumas to cover the Harrogate workings.


Harrogate is a destination for conferences and holidays in a way that Barnsley and Huddersfield aren't.

Population doesn't directly correlate to long distance demand.

Yes I’m sure LNER and the operators before them did their homework on revenue potential as well as operational reasons for serving Harrogate. It is more of a destination in its own right particularly for tourism.

 

[bramling]

To cater for well heeled commuters who work part of the week in London. I used to work with someone in this category who did three days a week in London (he had a flat there) and had a main family home in Harrogate.

Same, I worked with someone doing exactly that. I reckon there’s a fair few “consultant” types who live either in or around Harrogate. As well as being a wealthy town in its own right, it’s also a gateway to a much wider area, which is also very wealthy. Aside from that, it’s also a destination in its own right as well, as evidenced by the number of decent-quality hotels.

 

[3RDGEN]

Well obviously, but there are plenty of other places with far higher populations in Yorkshire (Barnsley, Huddersfield etc) with no such connection. It just seems like an odd service to exist

In was planned to have a LNER two hourly service to Huddersfield but COVID and now the Transpennine Route Upgrade mean it's not happened as yet but it may return once the upgrade is completed. Harrogate provides for a large catchment area meaning people don't need to drive to York/Leeds for London, also Northern haven't reinstated their fast Harrogate - Leeds service from pre COVID so LNER helps pick up some of that slack.

 

[bluenoxid]

There is the Convention Centre and the Showground plus Bettys. There’s a fair amount of money on the quiet and a lot of development with people who have jobs headquartered down London.

You turn up into Harrogate and you’ve got access to Brimham Rocks, Bettys, Fountains Abbey, Knaresborough and Bettys.

That’s not to say that everyone has money.

Honestly, I’d prefer the every 30 minute fast service run by Northern instead and I would like to see some work done to improve early/late services. For example, the first train past Harrogate into Leeds doesn’t arrive until 0740.

 

[thejuggler]

Its also provides a high capacity rush hour service for Horsforth commuters.

 

[Magdalia]

Through services between Harrogate and Kings Cross have a long an illustrious history, going back to the days of steam.

The Yorkshire Pullman had a Harrogate portion and the Queen of Scots Pullman ran via Harrogate and Ripon. The latter was truncated to run to/from Harrogate only and renamed the White Rose in (I think) 1964. A short while after, in 1967, the White Rose was replaced by the 1130 Kings Cross-Harrogate and back, amongst the first Deltic+8 limited load fast expresses.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For example, the first train past Harrogate into Leeds doesn’t arrive until 0740.

Not sure I quite follow the point that you're endeavouring to make here. Could you possibly further clarify? Thanks!

 

[bluenoxid]

Not sure I quite follow the point that you're endeavouring to make here. Could you possibly further clarify? Thanks!

First train out of Knaresborough and Starbeck does not arrive into Leeds until 0740.

 

[duffield]

I use it from Grantham periodically, when it's not cancelled. Much more civilised when travelling from Nottingham rather than going via Sheffield, which involves slow sometimes overcrowded NT services and/or extra changes and Cross Country (eek!). Harrogate is very much a "destination" in the way York is and (say) Barnsley isn't.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

First train out of Knaresborough and Starbeck does not arrive into Leeds until 0740.

That's as may be, but how is it relevant to the Harrogate->London (LNER) service?

 

[skyhigh]

Honestly, I’d prefer the every 30 minute fast service run by Northern instead

Pre-Covid, there was an hourly fast Leeds-Horsforth-Hornbeam-Harrogate service.

It was almost always dead and was decided to be a waste of crew and units, which is why it never came back when services were restored.

 

[A S Leib]

King's Cross – Harrogate is 88,000 journeys per year. Even if some of those are changing at Leeds or via York, that's 80% of the number of King's Lynn – London journeys and more than double Berwick-upon-Tweed – King's Cross, or higher than York – Hull.

Whilst it's reasonably on-topic, has an extension to Knaresborough ever been considered? Is the infrastructure unsuitable past Harrogate, or is via York faster enough that it wouldn't make as much sense?

 

[JonathanH]

Whilst it's reasonably on-topic, has an extension to Knaresborough ever been considered? Is the infrastructure unsuitable past Harrogate, or is via York faster enough that it wouldn't make as much sense?

Reversing at Knaresborough requires an awkward shunt at the western end of the station, and there is unlikely to be capacity, or sense, to go further east. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ions-to-get-fewer-services.36014/#post-489029

 

[dk1]

King's Cross – Harrogate is 88,000 journeys per year. Even if some of those are changing at Leeds or via York, that's 80% of the number of King's Lynn – London journeys and more than double Berwick-upon-Tweed – King's Cross, or higher than York – Hull.

Whilst it's reasonably on-topic, has an extension to Knaresborough ever been considered? Is the infrastructure unsuitable past Harrogate, or is via York faster enough that it wouldn't make as much sense?

It would have done with the original via York plans.

 

[bluenoxid]

That's as may be, but how is it relevant to the Harrogate->London (LNER) service?

I would prefer time and resources to be focused on fast local trains and better local services rather than the London service.

 

[JonathanH]

I would prefer time and resources to be focused on fast local trains and better local services rather than the London service.

What is the difference between a 'fast local train' from Harrogate to Leeds and a London service from Harrogate to Leeds, apart from the pointy end? Both are only going to stop at Horsforth in between.

 

[Teaboy1]

Its part of the Golden Triangle for the well heeled!
Leeds - Harrogate - Wetherby, their need is well represented and as previously mentioned, takes some pressure off the Leeds - Doncaster route and onto the ECML.

As Duffield says " Harrogate is very much a "destination" in the way York is and (say) Barnsley isn't." Plus it means a bit shorter journey for some 88000 passengers.
Long may it continue.

 

[A S Leib]

Thank you.

I would prefer time and resources to be focused on fast local trains and better local services rather than the London service.

How big of an issue is LNER services importing delays to the Harrogate line? The 15:33 from King's Cross has only been on time 23% of the time in the past 12 Monday-Friday weeks with 10 (part?) cancellations, with 70% within 10 minutes, so I could understand wanting focus on Leeds terminators if it was an issue.

 

[bluenoxid]

What is the difference between a 'fast local train' from Harrogate to Leeds and a London service from Harrogate to Leeds, apart from the pointy end? Both are only going to stop at Horsforth in between.

Current set up imports delays and part cancellations
Could be run every 30-60 minutes instead of adhoc LNER services
If a local train fails then other units nearby can couple up
The services can be stepped up and extended in times of disruption