What's the rationale for the limitations on Senior/Family & Friends Railcard use in the Network Railcard area?

[TUC]

Senior and Family & Friends Railcards cannot be used on Peak services in the Network Railcard area. If this were purely in terms of travel in London I could understand this. However, the Network Railcard area includes many non-London journeys. The geographical line of the restriction also seems somewhat arbitrary. It is odd, for example, that the railcard is valid for a peak Rugby-Northampton journey, but not Long Buckley-Northampton. Similarly, it is valid for Leamington Spa-Oxford, but not Banbury-Oxford.

What's the rationale behind such an apparently poorly geographically targeted restriction?

 

[Haywain]

Lines have to be drawn somewhere and wherever that is their will be potential for similar anomalies. So the lines used are those of the erstwhile Network South East area.

 

[TUC]

Lines have to be drawn somewhere and wherever that is their will be potential for similar anomalies. So the lines used are those of the erstwhile Network South East area.

But does there have to be a line drawn? As. I said above, journeys into London I can understand, but the former Network South East area seems very broad and arbitary, with no particular significance to much of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But does there have to be a line drawn? As. I said above, journeys into London I can understand, but the former Network South East area seems very broad and arbitary, with no particular significance to much of it.

If the whole area wasn't restricted people would split tickets. Plus it's an understandable area (or was).

 

[cactustwirly]

It's ridiculous really that the railcards all have different restrictions

There should just be a minimum fare for all Railcards

 

[Snow1964]

If the whole area wasn't restricted people would split tickets. Plus it's an understandable area (or was).

Yes, more of a historic (from mid 1980s) set of boundaries. But Op is correct it doesn't make that much sense nowadays.

And when the contactless (smartcard) area around London becomes fully live by next year at all stations in a smaller area than Network area, probably time to kill off remnants of Network SouthEast card and just make the National cards apply outside the expanded smartcard area.

It's ridiculous really that the railcards all have different restrictions

There should just be a minimum fare for all Railcards

There is an argument in post pandemic world that should get rid of all remaining railcards, and just reduce the off peak fare by 34% as that is the fare many pay anyway

 

[Haywain]

It's ridiculous really that the railcards all have different restrictions

But they serve different markets which is why they are not all the same.

There is an argument in post pandemic world that should get rid of all remaining railcards, and just reduce the off peak fare by 34% as that is the fare many pay anyway

Many people don't pay 34% less though, because they don't have railcards. And this would lead to a bigger gap between Anytime and Off Peak fares which, as a railcard holder, can look pretty horrendous already.

 

[JonathanH]

What's the rationale behind such an apparently poorly geographically targeted restriction?

It was implemented by Network South East while still part of British Rail so wasn't at all arbitrary when introduced (other than to the operational boundary of Network South East).

If anything, what keeps it being arbitrary is that the rest of British Rail didn't follow the lead of NSE.

It's ridiculous really that the railcards all have different restrictions

It really isn't. They are aimed at different markets, and need to preserve certain revenue streams at higher fares (eg short distance travel for students).

There is an argument in post pandemic world that should get rid of all remaining railcards, and just reduce the off peak fare by 34% as that is the fare many pay anyway

A blanket 34% reduction would soon be forgotten and people would still complain about high prices.

The railcard structure encourages travel by giving people a visible discount while also ensuring that higher revenue is maintained from passengers without railcards.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The railcard structure encourages travel by giving people a visible discount while also ensuring that higher revenue is maintained from passengers without railcards.

Yes, the fact that I need either a Network Railcard, a Family & Friends Railcard, or a Cotswold Line Railcard, depending which journey I'm making, really encourages travel. Well done railway industry, knocking it out the park as always.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, the fact that I need either a Network Railcard, a Family & Friends Railcard, or a Cotswold Line Railcard, depending which journey I'm making, really encourages travel. Well done railway industry, knocking it out the park as always.

The fact that you consider it worthwhile to have three railcards suggests to me that the rail industry is doing the right thing to encourage you to see that as the right option.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The fact that you consider it worthwhile to have three railcards suggests to me that the rail industry is doing the right thing to encourage you to see that as the right option.

That's an interesting viewpoint, roughly akin to saying that because some people do indeed pay the £369.40 Anytime Return fare from Piccadilly to Euston, it is de facto reasonable and should not be questioned. I believe this is generally known as Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, the fact that I need either a Network Railcard, a Family & Friends Railcard, or a Cotswold Line Railcard, depending which journey I'm making, really encourages travel. Well done railway industry, knocking it out the park as always.

Your location clearly plays a significant part in what is both available and useful to you. There are very many people who would appreciate having such a choice.

 

[30907]

It's ridiculous really that the railcards all have different restrictions

I can see a case for rationalising the 3 NSE ones - the Network Railcard is the least generous so what would you predict?

There should just be a minimum fare for all Railcards

Pitched at what level? Everywhere?

 

[lachlan]

Yes, more of a historic (from mid 1980s) set of boundaries. But Op is correct it doesn't make that much sense nowadays.

And when the contactless (smartcard) area around London becomes fully live by next year at all stations in a smaller area than Network area, probably time to kill off remnants of Network SouthEast card and just make the National cards apply outside the expanded smartcard area.



There is an argument in post pandemic world that should get rid of all remaining railcards, and just reduce the off peak fare by 34% as that is the fare many pay anyway

On your last point, 16-25 and disabled Railcard users (and perhaps others) get discounts on anytime fares too

 

[Haywain]

And when the contactless (smartcard) area around London becomes fully live by next year at all stations in a smaller area than Network area, probably time to kill off remnants of Network SouthEast card and just make the National cards apply outside the expanded smartcard area.

Is disadvantaging a huge number of people in London and the south east some sort of levelling up agenda?

 

[Benjwri]

There should just be a minimum fare for all Railcards

Or to be honest I wonder if it could be better to just merge the majority of railcards? Certainly the 16-25, 26-30, Senior and Veteran all have fairly similar restrictions and could fairly easily be merged, perhaps just with a minimum fare.

The only disadvantages of this are the Senior would become less restrictive, although I question how many journeys are affected these days by the network area rule. Obviously this would likely give first class validity to the 16-25 and 26-30 railcard, but this will likely only result in increased revenue, and helps fight the archaic idea that First Class isn’t open to the young.

 

[yorksrob]

But does there have to be a line drawn? As. I said above, journeys into London I can understand, but the former Network South East area seems very broad and arbitary, with no particular significance to much of it.

The NSE area is very broad and arbitrary, compared to the National Railcard that is needed.

Is disadvantaging a huge number of people in London and the south east some sort of levelling up agenda?

To level up, they would need to do something about the huge number of people outside the NSE area who aren't entitled to any railcard

 

[TUC]

I think the fundamental problem is that it is not even that the Network Railcard boundary makes sense to those in the South East. It only makes sense to those with a knowledge of railway history from 30 years ago.

 

[Hadders]

It's ridiculous really that the railcards all have different restrictions

There should just be a minimum fare for all Railcards

Different railcards serve different purposes which is why they have different restrictions.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the fundamental problem is that it is not even that the Network Railcard boundary makes sense to those in the South East. It only makes sense to those with a knowledge of railway history from 30 years ago.

There isn't really a problem.

Essentially all you are saying is that some fares should be cheaper for a particular group of people. I could say that about many things. Ultimately, you just have to pay what the person providing the service deems to be the appropriate price.

 

[TUC]

There isn't really a problem.

Essentially all you are saying is that some fares should be cheaper for a particular group of people. I could say that about many things. Ultimately, you just have to pay what the person providing the service deems to be the appropriate price.

No, I am saying that there is nothing special about passenger demand or flows in many parts of the Network Railcard area to justify different arrangements.

Different railcards serve different purposes which is why they have different restrictions.

But it is hard to say that there is any logic between the target group for a given railcard and the specific restrictions applicable to it. They seem to be unco-ordinated accidents of history.

 

[Hadders]

No, I am saying that there is nothing special about passenger demand or flows in many parts of the Network Railcard area to justify different arrangements.


But it is hard to say that there is any logic between the target group for a given railcard and the specific restrictions applicable to it. They seem to be unco-ordinated accidents of history.

Ok let's have a go at a few different restrictions and why:

Disabled Persons Railcard
Discounted travel available at all times. Quite right in my opinion.

16-25 Railcard:
Discount available at all times subject to a minimum discounted fare of £12 on weekdays (doesn't apply in July and August). This allows younger workers the opportunity to get a discount on longer distance commuting (e.g. into London and other cities). Younger workers at the start of their careers are less likely to be earning a high salary, and a 34% discount is a larger discount than many season tickets gives and is also an opportunity for these railcard holders to purchase tickets on a daily basis thus spreading the cost.

Senior Railcard:
Discount available at all times except for journeys wholly in the Network Railcard Area where discounted tickets cannot be used until the Off Peak Day Return becomes valid. A but if a tricky one but there is a need to prevent these railcard holders using discounted tickets to travel ito London for commuting purposes as it would abstract too much revenue. Less of a problem in the rest of the country due to smaller commuter flows and lower ticket prices.

Network Railcard:
Target market is leisure traffic in London & South East. Objective is to promote the use of trains outside of peak commuting times into London, where fares are generally higher than in other areas of the country, hence valid from 10am on weekdays. Discount available for more than one person to encourage group travel to fill off peak trains. The bargains start when the rush stops as the adverts used to say! Minimum discounted fare was introduced to placarte some train companies who threatened to pull out.

Do I think there should be a national version of the Network Railcard - yes! It's unlikely that it will happen as there isn't generally the spare capacity to fill in the same way there is in the south east, and the undiscounted fares are generally better value outside the south east.

Family & Friends Railcard:
Offers a decent discount when travelling with children thereby making travel more affordable. Restrictions in the morning peak period in the Network Railcard Area to protect morning peak capacity for commuters. Historically less of a problem in other areas of the country.

If the terms were harmonised I'll leave you to guess what would happen, but it would result in price increases for many. Simplification sounds desirable but it really wouldn't be desirable. Be careful what you wish for!

 

[JonathanH]

16-25 Railcard:
Discount available at all times subject to a minimum discounted fare of £12 on weekdays (doesn't apply in July and August). This allows younger workers the opportunity to get a discount on longer distance commuting (e.g. into London and other cities). Younger workers at the start of their careers are less likely to be earning a high salary, and a 34% discount is a larger discount than many season tickets gives and is also an opportunity for these railcard holders to purchase tickets on a daily basis thus spreading the cost.

The minimum fare restriction also means that journeys to school, college or university are at a full rate, while still allowing longer distance journeys to be discounted, which is quite clever really.

Do I think there should be a national version of the Network Railcard - yes! It's unlikely that it will happen as there isn't generally the spare capacity to fill in the same way there is in the south east, and the undiscounted fares are generally better value outside the south east.

I think what you point out is that there is no case for a national railcard available to all, covering the whole country. There may well be a case for separate regional railcards restricted by area, but there is also a need not to cannibalise full fare revenue. Ultimately, the purpose of a railcard is to try and encourage journeys that would not be made otherwise at times when there is spare capacity. That is more difficult, the longer the journey is, as it is more likely that people will end up being on a train that is well loaded.

One of the stated problems of the Network Railcard is that it prevented the train companies from having their own offers, which could be targetted better at times when there was spare capacity, rather than when passengers would be travelling anyway.

 

[Watershed]

Ultimately, the purpose of a railcard is to try and encourage journeys that would not be made otherwise at times when there is spare capacity.

That is undoubtedly how they are used under the current British system. However, other countries' railways show that Railcard equivalents can also be highly effective when operated as a subscription service, perhaps charging a little more than Railcards currently cost, but concomitantly offering a greater discount - this is intended to 'lock people in' to travelling by train. It's similar to how Amazon Prime works.

I am entirely unconvinced that the Railcard system is the best way of operating such a discount scheme.

 

[infobleep]

Ok let's have a go at a few different restrictions and why:

Disabled Persons Railcard
Discounted travel available at all times. Quite right in my opinion.

16-25 Railcard:
Discount available at all times subject to a minimum discounted fare of £12 on weekdays (doesn't apply in July and August). This allows younger workers the opportunity to get a discount on longer distance commuting (e.g. into London and other cities). Younger workers at the start of their careers are less likely to be earning a high salary, and a 34% discount is a larger discount than many season tickets gives and is also an opportunity for these railcard holders to purchase tickets on a daily basis thus spreading the cost.

Senior Railcard:
Discount available at all times except for journeys wholly in the Network Railcard Area where discounted tickets cannot be used until the Off Peak Day Return becomes valid. A but if a tricky one but there is a need to prevent these railcard holders using discounted tickets to travel ito London for commuting purposes as it would abstract too much revenue. Less of a problem in the rest of the country due to smaller commuter flows and lower ticket prices.

Network Railcard:
Target market is leisure traffic in London & South East. Objective is to promote the use of trains outside of peak commuting times into London, where fares are generally higher than in other areas of the country, hence valid from 10am on weekdays. Discount available for more than one person to encourage group travel to fill off peak trains. The bargains start when the rush stops as the adverts used to say! Minimum discounted fare was introduced to placarte some train companies who threatened to pull out.

Do I think there should be a national version of the Network Railcard - yes! It's unlikely that it will happen as there isn't generally the spare capacity to fill in the same way there is in the south east, and the undiscounted fares are generally better value outside the south east.

Family & Friends Railcard:
Offers a decent discount when travelling with children thereby making travel more affordable. Restrictions in the morning peak period in the Network Railcard Area to protect morning peak capacity for commuters. Historically less of a problem in other areas of the country.

If the terms were harmonised I'll leave you to guess what would happen, but it would result in price increases for many. Simplification sounds desirable but it really wouldn't be desirable. Be careful what you wish for!

Of course, fewer people commute in the morning and leisure travel is doing well, broadly speaking.

What I don't understand is why the Gold Card area is different to the Network Rail Area. I accept why a company might want to offer gold card benefits but if they are offering what, why do they not wish to be part of the Network Rail Card area?

The name Network Rail Card doesn't describe the area it's valid in any way. It's not the most helpfully named product in this respect

There is a national two-together product but I don't use it as I'm single and if I was travelling with a friend, it's unlikely we would travel together at the same time for the whole journey.

 

[JonathanH]

What I don't understand is why the Gold Card area is different to the Network Rail Area. I accept why a company might want to offer gold card benefits but if they are offering what, why do they not wish to be part of the Network Rail Card area?

The Gold Card is effectively a reward for holding an annual season ticket. A Network Railcard is not.

It is very straightforward why Greater Anglia and London Midland chose to extend the Gold Card area but not the area for the Network Railcard. It was because they saw it as a way of encouraging passengers to buy annual seasons.

 

[Hadders]

Of course, fewer people commute in the morning and leisure travel is doing well, broadly speaking.

What I don't understand is why the Gold Card area is different to the Network Rail Area. I accept why a company might want to offer gold card benefits but if they are offering what, why do they not wish to be part of the Network Rail Card area?

The name Network Rail Card doesn't describe the area it's valid in any way. It's not the most helpfully named product in this respect

There is a national two-together product but I don't use it as I'm single and if I was travelling with a friend, it's unlikely we would travel together at the same time for the whole journey.

The morning peak is still very busy in many places. Not as busy as pre-covid but certainly not carting fresh air around either!

The Network Railcard is named because it covered the Network SouthEast Area, I agree it's not a very helpful name these days. Annual season tickets issued in the Network SouthEast area qualified for Gold Card status which was basically a 'souped up' Network Railcard.

In 2015 the Gold Card area was expanded beyond the historical Network SouthEast Railcard area. East Anglia and the old London Midland routes south of Stafford were added. A Gold Card is basically a reward for annual season ticket holders.

 

[infobleep]

In 2015 the Gold Card area was expanded beyond the historical Network SouthEast Railcard area. East Anglia and the old London Midland routes south of Stafford were added. A Gold Card is basically a reward for annual season ticket holders.

It is a reward but would an extended Network Rail card area encourage more travel?

 

[MikeWh]

It is a reward but would an extended Network Rail card area encourage more travel?

Possibly. The difference is that the gold card is given in return for a (usually) significant upfront payment to the railway. The Network card only costs £30. The TOCs therefore view the two schemes in very different ways.

 

[yorksrob]

The minimum fare restriction also means that journeys to school, college or university are at a full rate, while still allowing longer distance journeys to be discounted, which is quite clever really.


I think what you point out is that there is no case for a national railcard available to all, covering the whole country. There may well be a case for separate regional railcards restricted by area, but there is also a need not to cannibalise full fare revenue. Ultimately, the purpose of a railcard is to try and encourage journeys that would not be made otherwise at times when there is spare capacity. That is more difficult, the longer the journey is, as it is more likely that people will end up being on a train that is well loaded.

One of the stated problems of the Network Railcard is that it prevented the train companies from having their own offers, which could be targetted better at times when there was spare capacity, rather than when passengers would be travelling anyway.

Oh yes, these "better" offers. Since the TOC's in the South East have spent their time degrading the conditions of the Network Railcard, it's hard to see how these offers would be better for anyone, other than the TOC's.

The morning peak is still very busy in many places. Not as busy as pre-covid but certainly not carting fresh air around either!

The Network Railcard is named because it covered the Network SouthEast Area, I agree it's not a very helpful name these days. Annual season tickets issued in the Network SouthEast area qualified for Gold Card status which was basically a 'souped up' Network Railcard.

In 2015 the Gold Card area was expanded beyond the historical Network SouthEast Railcard area. East Anglia and the old London Midland routes south of Stafford were added. A Gold Card is basically a reward for annual season ticket holders.

And yet in the North of the country, there is nothing to "soup up".