What's the rationale for the limitations on Senior/Family & Friends Railcard use in the Network Railcard area?

[Doctor Fegg]

There isn't really a problem.

Essentially all you are saying is that some fares should be cheaper for a particular group of people. I could say that about many things. Ultimately, you just have to pay what the person providing the service deems to be the appropriate price.

Folks, we can shut down the "Fares Advice & Policy" board now! Whatever the industry decides is right!

Big nope. Even pre-pandemic, the railway was subsidised to the tune of £5bn/year. That subsidy comes from your and my taxes. It is, ultimately, allocated according to the say-so of politicians that we elect.

It is entirely legitimate to question the social impact of how that subsidy is allocated, including which discounted fares should be offered to which social, geographic or demographic groups. It is entirely legitimate to consider whether or not there is "a problem". Your take it or leave it attitude might be appropriate in a country where the railways were built with private funding and receive no public subsidy. That country is not the UK.

 

[30907]

It is entirely legitimate to question the social impact of how that subsidy is allocated, including which discounted fares should be offered to which social, geographic or demographic groups. It is entirely legitimate to consider whether or not there is "a problem". Your take it or leave it attitude might be appropriate in a country where the railways were built with private funding and receive no public subsidy. That country is not the UK.

That's a fair comment, if Railcards are designed as a targeted form of subsidy. But historically they are commercial products, designed to encourage rail use.
There are exceptions - the 16-17 Saver clearly (not called a Railcard), and possibly the Forces one.

 

[miklcct]

That's a fair comment, if Railcards are designed as a targeted form of subsidy. But historically they are commercial products, designed to encourage rail use.
There are exceptions - the 16-17 Saver clearly (not called a Railcard), and possibly the Forces one.

Aren't the Young Person (16-25), Disabled and Senior cards the ones which are subsidy rather than commercial offerings, if I remember correctly?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I'd argue that in many cases, perhaps most, rail use is a social good in and of itself.

A Senior Railcard encourages independent mobility among older people, reduces isolation, and reduces the need for them to drive at a stage of life where they may find it difficult. A regional product like the Devon & Cornwall Railcard allows people in rural settlements (those with stations, anyway) to access services in larger towns. A Family Railcard makes the low-carbon alternative more appealing compared to car trips, and encourages a culture of using the railways that will stay with children as they grow up. And so on.

Drifting off topic perhaps. But using the fare system to achieve policy aims is absolutely something that a quasi-nationalised railway system should be doing - whether that policy aim be "reduce congestion" or "increase personal mobility". Railcards are a part of that mix.

 

[TUC]

Ok let's have a go at a few different restrictions and why:

Disabled Persons Railcard
Discounted travel available at all times. Quite right in my opinion.

16-25 Railcard:
Discount available at all times subject to a minimum discounted fare of £12 on weekdays (doesn't apply in July and August). This allows younger workers the opportunity to get a discount on longer distance commuting (e.g. into London and other cities). Younger workers at the start of their careers are less likely to be earning a high salary, and a 34% discount is a larger discount than many season tickets gives and is also an opportunity for these railcard holders to purchase tickets on a daily basis thus spreading the cost.

Senior Railcard:
Discount available at all times except for journeys wholly in the Network Railcard Area where discounted tickets cannot be used until the Off Peak Day Return becomes valid. A but if a tricky one but there is a need to prevent these railcard holders using discounted tickets to travel ito London for commuting purposes as it would abstract too much revenue. Less of a problem in the rest of the country due to smaller commuter flows and lower ticket prices.

Network Railcard:
Target market is leisure traffic in London & South East. Objective is to promote the use of trains outside of peak commuting times into London, where fares are generally higher than in other areas of the country, hence valid from 10am on weekdays. Discount available for more than one person to encourage group travel to fill off peak trains. The bargains start when the rush stops as the adverts used to say! Minimum discounted fare was introduced to placarte some train companies who threatened to pull out.

Do I think there should be a national version of the Network Railcard - yes! It's unlikely that it will happen as there isn't generally the spare capacity to fill in the same way there is in the south east, and the undiscounted fares are generally better value outside the south east.

Family & Friends Railcard:
Offers a decent discount when travelling with children thereby making travel more affordable. Restrictions in the morning peak period in the Network Railcard Area to protect morning peak capacity for commuters. Historically less of a problem in other areas of the country.

If the terms were harmonised I'll leave you to guess what would happen, but it would result in price increases for many. Simplification sounds desirable but it really wouldn't be desirable. Be careful what you wish for!

Are fares really still more expensive in the South East than elsewhere? There are plenty of examples of fares elsewhere which would challenge that. Moreover, if the concern is about pressure on commuter traffic into London, why not make journeys into London the subject of the restriction rather than across a wide area that has nothing in common except something that is a historical issue for the rail industry?

 

[Hadders]

Are fares really still more expensive in the South East than elsewhere?

Generally speaking, yes. Fares set by TOCs such as Northern, TfW, GWR, WMR, EMR wtc into non-London cities are generally better value than the equivilent distance fares into London.

There are plenty of examples of fares elsewhere which would challenge that.

There are always exceptions!

Moreover, if the concern is about pressure on commuter traffic into London, why not make journeys into London the subject of the restriction rather than across a wide area that has nothing in common except something that is a historical issue for the rail industry?

Realistically how would you implement this?

Would you allow Stevenage to Finsbury Park to be discounted but travel on the same train from Stevenage to Kings Cross would not discountable?
Would it depend on the final destination of the train?

It might be worth starting a new thread in Speculative Ideas.

 

[JonathanH]

Generally speaking, yes. Fares set by TOCs such as Northern, TfW, GWR, WMR, EMR wtc into non-London cities are generally better value than the equivilent distance fares into London.

At peak time yes, but the Southern south coast tickets and many super-off-peak fares into and around London at the weekend are considerably cheaper than anything away from the South East, yet they still attract Network Railcard discounts.

 

[Sm5]

There is another way, but as its European i’m sure it will be considered a bad thing here

BahnCard: save with every journey

The BahnCard is a discount card with subscription that lets you save 25 or 50 percent on every journey. Our trial BahnCards let you try it out for just three months.

www.bahn.com

 

[Haywain]

Are fares really still more expensive in the South East than elsewhere?

It's not black & white but fares on non-inter-city routes (those that were Regional Railways routes under BR) are generally cheaper than suburban routes in the south-east. As an example, a randomly chosen journey in the north of Skipton to Leeds (26.2 miles) has day-return fares of £13.20 (Anytime) and £11.00 (Off Peak). A similar distance journey in the south east of Harpenden to London St Pancras (24.3 miles) has fares of £29.70 (Anytime) and £21.50 (Off Peak). Now, I know that it will be simple to find variations because there are plenty, but fares in the old NSE area are generally a bit higher and more restricted than elsewhere. It can be argued that wages are higher in the south-east, but a Network Railcard equivalent across the country would likely lead to revenue loss without upward fare adjustments.

 

[JonathanH]

A similar distance journey in the south east of Harpenden to London St Pancras (24.3 miles) has fares of £29.70 (Anytime) and £21.50 (Off Peak).

£17.50 if you travel later in the day and don't return in the peak. £11.30 at the weekend, and the latter one fully discountable to £7.45 with a Network Railcard.

 

[Haywain]

£17.50 if you travel later in the day and don't return in the peak. £11.30 at the weekend, and the latter one fully discountable to £7.45 with a Network Railcard.

Still significantly higher other than at the weekend.

 

[Hadders]

Not everywhere in the south east has cheaper weekend super off peak tickets.

 

[JonathanH]

Not everywhere in the south east has cheaper weekend super off peak tickets.

Indeed, and as discussed before, neither are such prices available on Contactless PAYG where it co-exists.

It might also be noted in the context of this thread that the Senior Railcard doesn't provide discounts between 0630 and 0930 on Oyster, in common with other railcards.

 

[Haywain]

It might also be noted in the context of this thread that the Senior Railcard doesn't provide discounts between 0630 and 0930 on Oyster, in common with other railcards.

Or between 0430 and a variable time around 0900-ish for paper tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

There is another way, but as its European i’m sure it will be considered a bad thing here

BahnCard: save with every journey

The BahnCard is a discount card with subscription that lets you save 25 or 50 percent on every journey. Our trial BahnCards let you try it out for just three months.

www.bahn.com

That would be good, but as you say it would be far too simple and passenger friendly to fit in with our "commercial" railway.

 

[30907]

Aren't the Young Person (16-25), Disabled and Senior cards the ones which are subsidy rather than commercial offerings, if I remember correctly?

YP's ancestors was introduced in the 70s and the original Senior Citizen's Railcard around the same time. They were railway initiatives, though ISTR the NUS pushed for the Student Railcard.
The Disabled Railcard could be a subsidised product, possibly, however the fact that the existing Railcards were specifically protected at privatisation indicates that they were not (originally) subsidised.

 

[infobleep]

YP's ancestors was introduced in the 70s and the original Senior Citizen's Railcard around the same time. They were railway initiatives, though ISTR the NUS pushed for the Student Railcard.
The Disabled Railcard could be a subsidised product, possibly, however the fact that the existing Railcards were specifically protected at privatisation indicates that they were not (originally) subsidised.

I think the 16-25 is not named right and not was the Young Person's rail card. Reason being full time students of any age also qualify.

 

[MikeWh]

I think the 16-25 is not named right and not was the Young Person's rail card. Reason being full time students of any age also qualify.

There are too many nots in that sentence. I believe that the name was changed to 16-25 to make it clearer who could use one without any other qualification. The fact that the original student availability still applies is well known.

 

[Haywain]

I think the 16-25 is not named right and not was the Young Person's rail card. Reason being full time students of any age also qualify.

It was originally the Student Railcard and had more limited availability than now, although I can't remember the age range. On the other hand it did give a 50% discount.

 

[ac6000cw]

It was originally the Student Railcard and had more limited availability than now, although I can't remember the age range. On the other hand it did give a 50% discount.

As far as I remember, you had to be in full-time education to qualify (I used to buy them in the late 1970s when at university).

 

[Haywain]

As far as I remember, you had to be in full-time education to qualify (I used to buy them in the late 1970s when at university).

I have an inkling that you are correct about that being the case at the start.

 

[Ediswan]

I have an inkling that you are correct about that being the case at the start.

There is a lengthy history here: Wikipedia 16-25 Railcard

During the 1970s, the range of people who could buy the Railcard was expanded in stages; having at first been restricted to students in full-time education, it was made available to nurses, part-time students and, ultimately (in 1980) anybody between 14 and 24 years old inclusive

I do recall the rename from 'Student Railcard' to 'Young Persons Railcard'.

 

[infobleep]

There is a lengthy history here: Wikipedia 16-25 Railcard

I do recall the rename from 'Student Railcard' to 'Young Persons Railcard'.

Interesting. I hadn't realised it was available to nurses.

It is indeed commonly known its valid for full time students if you are a full time student. I wonder how commonly well known it is to 16-25 year olds?

 

[Sonic1234]

I wonder how commonly well known it is to 16-25 year olds?

In my experience, it's rare to find someone of the correct age and/or a student without one. Even among infrequent rail users. The bank account which offers the railcard is always a popular choice among students.

 

[Haywain]

it's rare to find someone of the correct age and/or a student without one.

And they're sometimes in date too!!

 

[infobleep]

And they're sometimes in date too!!

Despite the F&FRC limitations, I still got one for a friend visiting over here once because for their small amount of travel in one week, when I wasn't travelling with them, it was still better value then not using one. Even then there was times when I was travelling with them and they could be covered by my Gold Card.