When can customers buy tickets on the train?

[pt_mad]

Apologies if there is already a thread for this. Tried a search but to no avail.


My question is basically when are customers actually allowed to buy a ticket on the train/full range of tickets and under what circumstances are they not allowed?


I work in a station but not selling tickets/booking hall and my understanding is basically if the ticket office is closed, customers will be offered the full range onboard even though a tvm is available at the station.


However when I recently phoned up one of the toc controls to advise our ticket office would be closing early one day the staff member on the phone mentioned that passengers will not be allowed to buy tickets on the train as we have a tvm available.



Seems a lot of confusion over this. Management at my place say that if ticket office is closed full range will be offered onboard. Other staff I have spoken to say they have to pay full aytime fare and others say penalty fares will be issued although only by revenue collection.

Another problem to add into the mix is that we have other tocs serving our station other than our own and the TMs don't always seem to be aware of when the ticket office is staffed or unstaffed. Surely this is likely to cause passengers intending to pay on the train with problems?

Can anyone clear this up?

 

[yorkie]

This is covered in the NRCoC.

... my understanding is basically if the ticket office is closed, customers will be offered the full range onboard even though a tvm is available at the station....

If the full range isn't available from the TVM, it may not be possible to buy the appropriate ticket(s), in which case some TOCs enforce the official line that you sgold buy a ticket for part of your journey, which you can exchange at the next opportunity, while others want you to buy nothing until the next opportunity.

At some stations TVMs are only applicable to customers paying by card, in which case customers paying by cash should buy at the next opportunity.

 

[pt_mad]

Full range is available from our TVM and machine accepts cards and cash.


However we have still been told that we can advise passengers they may pay on the train if they so wish when the ticket office is closed and it will not cost them any more.


We still have lots and lots of people who say they cannot use the machine or there is a big queue and ask can they pay on the train.

 

[northwichcat]

some TOCs enforce the official line that you buy a ticket for part of your journey, which you can exchange at the next opportunity, while others want you to buy nothing until the next opportunity.

Northern may be the only operator where it happens but sometimes the TVM won't sell you the cheapest ticket to the next station e.g. if you require an Evening Return.

 

[maniacmartin]

There have been many threads on this, and none have ended with a consensus, because this is quite a complex question! This is partly because different TOCs have different policies which may differ from the NRCoC. I'll try to summarise:

The NRCoC states that if you are unable to purchase the ticket you require then you should purchase a ticket to allow you to make part of your journey and exchange it at the earliest opportunity. However a lot of staff don't like you doing this as it is fiddly to do the exchagne on Avantix and other machines.

TVMs are counted as an opportunity to buy if they exist, however if they only accept one form of payment (ie card only) which you hold, but you wish to pay with another form (cash or RTV), it is unclear whether you are obliged to use the TVM. It is my opinion that you should not be.

There is also some debate as to what the earliest opportunity to buy a ticket may be. It is the general consensus on this forum that if a TVM or booking office exists at the origin station then you are obliged to use it, regardless of how long the queue may be, unless a member of staff gives permission to buy on board. Many TOCs have targets as to how quick you should be served, but these are only targets and not binding.

It is the general consensus that you do not have to track down the guard on a train to buy a ticket, but if the guard (or TM) walks past then you should ask them to buy a ticket.

If you reach an interchange station and have not yet had an opportunity to buy a ticket, most TOCs' policy is that you must buy a ticket then, except when it would delay your onward journey (tight connection or queues). I have seen this in writing from two TOCs.

If the passenger wishes to do split ticketing, then it gets more complex as only Southern/Gatwick Express TVMs sell tickets from other origin stations. It is my opinion (and only an opinion) that in this instance the passenger should buy the first ticket in the split, and then buy the rest as soon as possible.

***

Regarding the consequences for not conforming with the above, that depends on both the TOC and member of staff who catches you:

• Some TOCs allow and even encourage passengers to buy on board with no penalty: e.g. Grand Central and Hull Trains. They sell the full range on board
• Some TOCs will always allow you buy on board, but only the undiscounted Anytime single or return: e.g. Virgin Trains and I believe East Coast
• Otherwise, if you meet an RPI or other member of staff who has the right training (PACE etc) you could be reported for prosecution or, at their discretion, and if you were travelling on a Penalty Fare train from a Penalty Fare station, a Penalty Fare
• If you meet a guard, they usually (not not always) only have the power to sell you normal tickets, so the worst that can happen is the undiscounted Anytime fare
• Some guards will offer discounted or off-peak tickets even if the passenger has broken the rules, to avoid confrontation. This is usually contrary to company policy, and can cause passengers to presume as they were offered the chance to buy on board, that they did nothing wrong

 

[island]

Full range is available from our TVM and machine accepts cards and cash.

I can guarantee that your TVM does not offer the full range of tickets; for example, it will not sell PRV discount tickets or tickets discounted with a Two Together Railcard (although the latter is irrelevant after next Friday). Unless you work for Southern, it also won't sell boundary zone tickets or tickets originating from another station. All of these could reasonably be required by a customer.

If the booking office is closed, passengers are still required to buy a ticket from the TVM, unless a notice is displayed stating they aren't or an authorised person so advises them. The arrangements yorkie mentioned apply in the event the ticket a passenger requires is not available from the TVM.

 

[pt_mad]

Ok when I say the full range I mean most of the usual tickets that would be required such as off peak tickets etc.

Nearly all of the usual tickets required to travel can be bought from the tvm but our toc encourages us to inform customers that they can pay on the train when ticket office is closed. But some services are provided by other tocs rather than ours.



As for Virgin trains it seems daft that anyone would just board one of their trains without a ticket. Are they hoping that nobody will check tickets? Can't see any other reason as they will probably end up paying well over the odds if sold a ticket onboard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
While we're on the subject I travelled on a train from Sheffield - Bridlington about a month ago on a Saturday and a huge group of teenagers got on at Hull.

When the guard came round none of them had bought tickets and were all asking for £3.15 tickets to Beverley. The guard sold them those tickets no questions or nothing saying you should have paid before. The £3.15 turns out to be an off peak child ticket so why were they allowed to buy these onboard with no consequenses or not even charged the anytime fare?

Hull seemed to be fully staffed at the time and they boarded there.

 

[island]

Guards may use their discretion to sell discounted tickets onboard even when there was opportunity to buy before boarding.

 

[neilmc]

Gets complicated - there are notices on TransPennine trains that the conductor will only be able to sell undiscounted tickets, so that could be taken as meaning that you CAN buy Anytime tickets on the train, even if you boarded at, say, Manchester Piccadilly, and you were traveling at peak and could only buy an Anytime ticket in any event.

However I haven't the bottle to incite a confrontation to find out.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's my opinion that the way the TOCs have this set up is wrong; all wrong. I want to make it clear - I have no sympathy at all for those who wish to avoid paying the proper fare for their journey. However, I do consider that the blanket "ban" (if that's the right word) on allowing sale of anything other than "full" fares onboard is flawed because, in my opinion, there are (often) entirely valid circumstances in which a passenger may present with no ticket. Including:

1: The only opportunity to pre-purchase at the station was a TVM. It's my view that any unattended automated solution cannot offer a complete ticket-vending service. It cannot offer advice about routing, for example. They rarely offer tickets other than for travel from the station at which they are located, which precludes anyone with a season ticket (for example) covering part of their trip pre-purchasing for the remainder. And so on. And then there are people who genuinely find such things difficult - whether mere technophobia or something more defined (such as dyslexia). The LEAST that might be deemed acceptable is a TVM with a real-time link to a human assistant (at a remote location) who can go so far as to "prepare" the relevant ticket in the machine leaving the customer to pay for it. And even that might be hard for some customers.

2: Where there is an open, manned ticket office, or an assisted TVM, but the dwell time for service is greater than 10 minutes. Nobody should have to plan to arrive at a station more than 15 minutes ahead of their scheduled departure (10 minutes to buy; 5 minutes to find platform etc...) A line has to be drawn somewhere. If the queues are 1/2 hr long - is that OK? 1hr? 2hr? How long before it's unacceptable?

Guards/conductors (etc) on board trains can exercise discretion. Sadly, however, I have observed too may cases where they do not. They blindly follow a "full fare only" approach. I suspect (rightly or wrongly) that they may me on either instruction or personal target as to the number/proportion of "full" fares they issue.

I think the TOCs try to have it both ways; they want to maximise revenue (fine) and they want to encourage people to pre-purchase (also fine) but they want to do so without sufficient (IMO) resource devoted to provision for ticket sales prior to travel.

I have timed the queue at my local major station at various random times, and seen it exceed 30 minutes. That, despite there being window positions unmanned. Not good enough.

I have seen a Penalty Fare applied to someone boarding at an unstaffed halt with nothing more than a coin-operated carpark-style "permission to travel" machine (installed in a concealed location - yes, honestly!) because they either didn't realise or understand or had no coins. Not good enough!

I have seen a full-fare enforced on someone who boarded at a TVM-only station who claimed to be dyslexic. Not good enough.

And I have read of someone who had a season, boarded a train at the unstaffed halt where his season was valid from; changed trains at a major station; the incoming was delayed and the connection so tight he did not have time to buy his further ticket at the change station; and got the "full fare" treatment onboard. Not good enough!

And we have seen a case here where a passenger asked the conductor if they may board the train with no ticket and got the "full fare" treatment despite his agreement. Not good enough.

Even if one can subsequently write to the TOC (dyslexic excluded) and get some re-imbursement, it's often given as an exception; a gesture; with no acknowledgement that, actually, the situation is (arguably) of the TOCs making. Not good enough!

These are, in my view, all very unfair cases. Unfair to the customers. And this policy/practice needs revisiting. (For the avoidance of doubt; I have no agenda to promote the avoidance of paying proper fares. I merely believe the TOCs should EITHER make the pre-purchase opportunity more satisfactory, or, where it isn't, offer a full range onboard.)

 

[ValleyLines142]

At some stations TVMs are only applicable to customers paying by card, in which case customers paying by cash should buy at the next opportunity.

I don't particularly agree with machines that only accept card payments, what is the case for when a fourteen or fifteen year old travels alone who doesn't have a debit or credit card?

 

[SS4]

As for Virgin trains it seems daft that anyone would just board one of their trains without a ticket. Are they hoping that nobody will check tickets? Can't see any other reason as they will probably end up paying well over the odds if sold a ticket onboard.

Only to/from London. I've used Virgin services in the West Midlands and it's rare to have one's ticket checked on board. I believe it's the same up North for local journeys

 

[yorkie]

Full range is available from our TVM and machine accepts cards and cash..

The full range?! Including PRIV, Rovers & Rangers, and tickets issued from a different origin (allowing "splitting")? I'd like to know where that TVM is! They should all be like that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't particularly agree with machines that only accept card payments, what is the case for when a fourteen or fifteen year old travels alone who doesn't have a debit or credit card?

They'd be paying by cash then, so the TVM is not applicable to them. They'd have to buy at the next opportunity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ok when I say the full range I mean most of the usual tickets that would be required such as off peak tickets etc.

Oh, so not the full range then. So the issue will still arise that some people will not be able to buy their tickets from the TVM.

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't particularly agree with machines that only accept card payments, what is the case for when a fourteen or fifteen year old travels alone who doesn't have a debit or credit card?

I am 15 and have had a debit card for nearly 2 years so why single out 14 and 15 year olds as older people also may not have one and teenagers may.

 

[trevmonk]

There should be a common approach to the sale of tickets on board.

My daughter often travelled home from university via a Southeastern service, changing to FCC at St Pancras to complete her journey. When in a hurry she would often board a train in Kent without a ticket, even though the ticket office was open. The Southeastern on-train staff were always happy to sell her a ticket and apply a railcard discount, even though she was in the wrong according to the rules.

I had to warn her that if she tried the same thing on the return journey, starting with FCC, she would certainly get a penalty fare, or even a court summons under byelaw 18.

I know there each operator has their own rules and may advertise them but it must be puzzling to overseas visitors who might be sold ticket on a train travelling in one direction but find themselves heavily penalised if they try the same in the opposite direction with a different operator.

 

[yorkie]

I am 15 and have had a debit card for nearly 2 years so why single out 14 and 15 year olds as older people also may not have one and teenagers may.

I had ignored that aspect of the question, but yes anyone may not have a debit card, may not have one with them, may not have sufficient funds allocated to it, or any other reason, they could be of any age, younger or older than 14/15!

 

[island]

Not to mention that debit cards issued to those under 18 are very frequently of a variety either explicitly or otherwise not accepted on trains!

 

[Trainfan344]

I know Greater Anglia offer pay trains on the Wherry and Bittern Lines, and I think East Suffolk, not quite sure, and before I get told I'm wrong, This is taken from an Penalty fare leaflet given out by Greater Anglia at Norwich station.

 

[jb]

There should be a common approach to the sale of tickets on board.

Anarchy regarding ticket purchase, or 100% rigid enforcement of pay-before-board-no-matter-what-or-get-in-trouble.

Them's your choices. Which is it?

EDIT: I suppose you can have "close hundreds of stations where full-range-offering will never be viable" as a third alternative.

 

[northwichcat]

Not to mention that debit cards issued to those under 18 are very frequently of a variety either explicitly or otherwise not accepted on trains!

Legally someone under 18 cannot be given credit. That means before a card transaction is accepted there must be a check that they have sufficient funds in their account.

Sometimes people over 18 will have the same restrictions in place as well e.g. if they are unemployed or have a poor credit rating.

While even those a card which doesn't require a check to be made first have an 'offline limit' and if that limit is reached then their card will be refused.

 

[pt_mad]

The full range?! Including PRIV, Rovers & Rangers, and tickets issued from a different origin (allowing "splitting")? I'd like to know where that TVM is! They should all be like that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They'd be paying by cash then, so the TVM is not applicable to them. They'd have to buy at the next opportunity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, so not the full range then. So the issue will still arise that some people will not be able to buy their tickets from the TVM.

No need to be sarcy. As explained by full range I meant within reason. 90% plus of the tickets required are available at the tvm. Most of our journeys are just a return for one or two stops and they require an off peak return. In which case surely they should buy before boarding if thats all they are after, with no discount required and card or cash is acceptable.

 

[sheff1]

As explained by full range I meant within reason

'Within reason' is meaningless. They either sell the full range or they don't.

Some TOCs are better than others, but I can confidently state that NO TVMs in this country sell the full range of tickets.

 

[pt_mad]

Well if we're going to take that line we might as well say everyone can just pay on board when there is no ticket office as full range cannot be offered from tvm.

 

[island]

Such a line is empirically against NRCoC 3.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...and it is the NRCoC which are probably unfair.

What we need, really, is for conductors to be willing, able, and encouraged, even, to hear why a passenger did not pre-purchase and to use proper discretion where the reasons are plausible. Plausible. No more ought to be required.

 

[sarahj]

Answers to the question, you should have bought one before you boarded.

Did not have enough time (1)
Train was about to leave (2)
Machine was not working (3)
The barriers were open, thought you did not need to buy a ticket at the station when they were open.
Oh, did not know that
errr
F**k you bitch
machine would not take my fifty note

And so forth.

1 Train at start point. no one gets on for at least 4 mins before dept. Ticket office open and machine available. Pass in front coach
2 see above, pointing out that you should give enough time often gets reply with a **
3 dispite the fact that others from the same station had a ticket.
Pointing out that next train is in 10 mins, or less never gets a good reply.

Some companies want it both ways, they put barriers in, but then moan when conductor revenue is down.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...and it is the NRCoC which are probably unfair.

What we need, really, is for conductors to be willing, able, and encouraged, even, to hear why a passenger did not pre-purchase and to use proper discretion where the reasons are plausible. Plausible. No more ought to be required.

Pretty sure that translates as....

...and it is the NRCoC which are damned inconvenient to anyone who doesn't act in accordance with them.

What we need, really, is for passengers to be willing, able, and encouraged, even, to do what the **** they like and get away with it. Not asking much.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Nope. They are merely too "black and white". I'm not condoning fare evasion; not at all. I am merely expressing the view that there are too many cases where there is (what I'd consider) reasonable justification for a passenger to act outwith the rules as they stand. Perhaps the most common example (as we've discussed elsewhere) is where the dwell time at a station is too long. Ability to buy a ticket before travel ought to be defined in more reasonable terms and dwell time would be one such factor.

 

[pt_mad]

Very constructive debate.


But still I am confused as to what to advise customers when ticket office is closed and they do not wish to purchase from tvm.

I would be happy to continue saying 'you can pay on the train' providing they will not come into problems doing this. The answer can't be 'you can pay on the train providing the tm doesn't disagree with this and in that case you may have to pay extra'.

 

[Starmill]

Not to mention that debit cards issued to those under 18 are very frequently of a variety either explicitly or otherwise not accepted on trains!

Not really?

There will always be one group of people who get annoyed because they can't buy the ticket they want from a TVM. There will always be one group of people who get annoyed because they are forced to pay the 'full' price onboard when they had no chance to buy beforehand. Staff will always get annoyed that people don't want to accept their responsibility to pay for their travel. There is even a (growing?) group of people who I just don't understand who get annoyed because other people get discounted tickets where they could have bought before boarding at the ticket office! It's a mess... someone usually comes along and suggests full staffing at every station to solve the problem but then somebody else is like "Even at Sugar Loaf? Or Denton?"... Inconsistency is one of the biggest problems with this, as somebody pointed out earlier about SE/FCC.

Let's see if we can at least reach this consensus: the more ticket offices are open for longer and at more stations, the more this problem can be reduced.