When did the military stop authoring accident reports?

[vidal]

When did the military stop authoring accident reports?

Senior army officers would compile the accident reports and this continued well into recent decades.

Why did this start and when was the last military authored report?

James

 

[Gloster]

The last ex-military Chief Inspecting Officer was Major Charles Rose, who held the post from 1982 to 1988; I am not sure if any ex-military men continued at a lower level beyond 1988. All recruits to the Inspectorate up to 1982 were ex-military, but non-military ones then became the norm.

EDIT: Further rooting around shows that at least three ex-military men were Inspectors after 1988. Two of these, Majors Holden and King, were still there in 1990.

EDIT II: Both majors had accident reports published in 1994, but in both cases they were for accidents in 1986 and 1990, and may have been completed earlier but had been held back for legal or other reasons.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The military men who worked in the Railway Inspectorate were from the Royal Engineers.

In the Victorian era there were very few professional engineers who who not either in the army or the railway industry.

(My grandfather was in the Royal Engineers, his two brothers in law were civil engineers working for the railways, ironically the one in the army was the only one who survived WW1)

 

[Gloster]

In addition to the RE being one of the few sources of trained engineers, it was felt that they were men who had the appropriate status and independence to carry out the job without fear or favour. Even though the general attitude of the era was to trust business to get on with things responsibility, once Parliament had decided that there should be some oversight of safety standards, it did its best to make sure that this was done properly.

 

[John Webb]

A history "Railway Detectives - 150 Years of the Railway Inspectorate" by Stanley Hall (Ian Allan, 1990) goes into the reasons that members of the Royal Engineers were appointed as inspectors. It makes interesting reading. The main reason that there has been a change-over to civilians is that the Army stopped having their own large-scale involvement in railways and fewer qualified army officers were therefore available.

 

[JohnElliott]

My recollection when volunteering on the Bluebell Railway extension from Horsted Keynes to Kingscote, in the 1988-1994 timeframe, was that the inspecting officers were Major Olver and Major Poyntz -- the latter's obituary says he was the last Royal Engineer officer to be appointed as a railway inspector.

 

[swt_passenger]

My recollection when volunteering on the Bluebell Railway extension from Horsted Keynes to Kingscote, in the 1988-1994 timeframe, was that the inspecting officers were Major Olver and Major Poyntz -- the latter's obituary says he was the last Royal Engineer officer to be appointed as a railway inspector.

ORR have an obituary of Major John Poyntz. I think they’re careful to note that he did 35 years in the Army and then joined HMRI:

Major John Poyntz was in the army for 35 years, serving with the Royal Engineers and later the Royal Corps of Transport.

After military service, he joined the Railway Inspectorate – now part of the Office of Rail and Road – a move he viewed as an honour and privilege.

He was the last Royal Engineer to take such route, spending 25 years in the role as a Railway Inspector. His work included inspections of heritage railways and dealing with accidents and incidents such as the Severn tunnel rail accident and the Cannon Street rail crash both in 1991.

Life of former inspector of railways celebrated with freight train named in his honour | Office of Rail and Road

GB Railfreight and the Office of Rail and Road have honoured the last Royal Engineer officer to be appointed a HM Railway Inspector, Major John Poyntz, by naming a freight train after him.

www.orr.gov.uk

Back then it was far more common that a former military officer would continue to use his rank in his civilian employment. It doesn’t necessarily mean the Army had any responsibility for his then current role. I wonder when it became usual practice to retire from the Army and transfer full time into the HMRI?

It seems to me that initially serving officers would be seconded to investigations and inspections, but even then that didn’t actually mean the Army was directly responsible for railway matters?

 

[StephenHunter]

Back then it was far more common that a former military officer would continue to use his rank in his civilian employment. It doesn’t necessarily mean the Army had any responsibility for his then current role. I wonder when it became usual practice to retire from the Army and transfer full time into the HMRI?

It seems to me that initially serving officers would be seconded to investigations and inspections, but even then that didn’t actually mean the Army was directly responsible for railway matters?

The British Army allows those of Major and above to retain their rank in retirement.

After being commissioned into the Armed Forces, there are rank structures personnel can rise through within their respective service.

But, once a member of the military decides to retire, can they keep their rank?

Well, the answer is yes and no.

Can military personnel keep their rank after retirement?

Personnel above a certain rank can retain their military rank despite retiring from the Armed Forces.

www.forcesnews.com

 

[swt_passenger]

The British Army allows those of Major and above to retain their rank in retirement.

Can military personnel keep their rank after retirement?

Personnel above a certain rank can retain their military rank despite retiring from the Armed Forces.

www.forcesnews.com

Yes I’m well aware of that, similarly for RN and RAF equivalents. Indeed I was taught maths at secondary school in the 60s by a chap who still proudly used his Wing Cdr title in his day to day life.

What I’m thinking is that nowadays, although they can, it’s comparatively much less common for ex-officers to use the privilege.

 

[stuving]

Remember that the current clear distinction between service and retirement did not exist before the Cardwell reforms of 1871. Army officers could instead go on half pay and be able to take up government jobs, only later to resign their commission.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The British Army allows those of Major and above to retain their rank in retirement.

Such as "the Major" in Fawlty Towers.

Remember that the current clear distinction between service and retirement did not exist before the Cardwell reforms of 1871. Army officers could instead go on half pay and be able to take up government jobs, only later to resign their commission.

Not sure how it worked post-Cardwell, but my great grandfather left the army at the age of 56 in 1918, a month or so before the Armistice, to take up an adminstrative position in the newly-formed RAF. He did not see front line service in WW1, but two of his sons did, neither of them surviving the war. His future son-in-law, my grandfather, also moved from the Army to a civilan Military job (at the Royal Arsenal) after WW1, but as a mere sergeant he could not style himself by his former army rank.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

A couple of the Royal Engineer Officers who inspected railways and had the job of writing accident reports also had international football careers in the 1870's, when Royal Engineers were one of the strongest teams in England. F Marindin and P G von Donop both played in FA Cup finals and internationals for England against the Scots, with von Donop also competing at the Wimbledon tennis championships and being the godfather of author P G Wodehouse.

(I do enjoy Wikipedia!)

 

[Rescars]

The Railway Inspectorate seems to have been a bit of a family concern. Wikipedia also tells us that the daughter of General Sir Charles Pasley, the onetime inspector-general of railways, married Captain Tyler (who reported on Clayton Tunnel amongst other notable incidents). Tyler has a multi-faceted career and on retirement from the inspectorate, amongst other things, went on to become chairman of Westinghouse and Deputy Chairman of the Great Eastern as well as an MP.

 

[satisnek]

What has always impressed me when reading historic accident reports is the wonderfully efficient use of written English by those ex-military guys. They had a natural talent for being clear, accurate and unambiguous without being verbose. In contrast, today's RAIB reports look like they have been written by someone who has been on a course.

 

[John Webb]

What has always impressed me when reading historic accident reports is the wonderfully efficient use of written English by those ex-military guys. They had a natural talent for being clear, accurate and unambiguous without being verbose. In contrast, today's RAIB reports look like they have been written by someone who has been on a course.

I generally agree that they were written clearly, possibly because in the course of their military work they had to explain technical concepts to poorly-educated soldiers? I think the current reports are reasonable. Unlike the older reports the newer ones are dealing with much more complex systems and perhaps more telling, having to deal with a divided railway system where different companies - Network Rail, Train Operators and contractors are often all involved in an incident. Whereas most accidents in older days involved just one company and its own employees, if that's not too sweeping a generalisation!

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Latterly the RE and RCT officers had all left the Active List, or were fully retired. Earlier they went on half-pay and then joined the Reserve of Officers until they reached the age limit. I have been looking into various RE officers who did a short(ish) course at Nine Elms(later Eastleigh) Works. 2 later joined the RI: George Hall as a Major in 1922 (promoted to Lt-Colonel in 1926), left to become the Signal Engineer of the Southern Railway in 1930 and retired from the Reserve in 1937; Ernest Woodhouse served until 1930 (commanding the Railway Training Coy. at Longmoor) as a Lt-Colonel when he joined the RI and reached the Reserve retirement age in 1939.
Pat

 

[StephenHunter]

The Epping-Ongar line was signed off by a Board of Trade inspector who was a Captain.

 

[Pigeon]

ORR have an obituary of Major John Poyntz. I think they're careful to note that he did 35 years in the Army and then joined HMRI:

Major John Poyntz was in the army for 35 years, serving with the Royal Engineers and later the Royal Corps of Transport.

After military service, he joined the Railway Inspectorate - now part of the Office of Rail and Road - a move he viewed as an honour and privilege.

He was the last Royal Engineer to take such route,

...then they changed the poyntz.

 

[contrex]

The British Army allows those of Major and above to retain their rank in retirement.

Years ago I gathered (from Debrett I think) that captains can keep their rank in retirement, if they have 'equestrian involvement', one example being Mark Phillips (not sure about Terence O'Neill) I always wondered if Captain Peacock at Grace Brothers was or had been a competitive horse rider. I couldn't quite see a retired naval captain (full colonel equivalent) working in a department store. I am old enough to fondly remember 'Lieutenant-Commander Bill Boakes' riding about Streatham on his 'Road Safety Campaign' bicycle. I rather think the trend these days is to drop titles, former ranks, etc.

 

[StephenHunter]

Years ago I gathered (from Debrett I think) that captains can keep their rank in retirement, if they have 'equestrian involvement', one example being Mark Phillips (not sure about Terence O'Neill) I always wondered if Captain Peacock at Grace Brothers was or had been a competitive horse rider. I couldn't quite see a retired naval captain (full colonel equivalent) working in a department store.

You've got Captain Hastings in the Poirot novels,

 

[Gloster]

Years ago I gathered (from Debrett I think) that captains can keep their rank in retirement, if they have 'equestrian involvement', one example being Mark Phillips (not sure about Terence O'Neill) I always wondered if Captain Peacock at Grace Brothers was or had been a competitive horse rider. I couldn't quite see a retired naval captain (full colonel equivalent) working in a department store.

I think that captains can also retain their ranks for a number of straightforward reasons: basically, they need to have served in the rank long enough and left the army in the normal way. It is even possible for officers of lower rank to continue to call themselves Captain after leaving if they held the captain’s rank on a temporary or acting basis long enough, something that was more common in the past. The rules have changed a number of times, but are still complicated.

Some of the officers do seem to have gone back to the army after a period with the Inspectorate.

At least two captains became Chief Inspecting Officer, including Henry Tyler.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

My grandfather was a substantive captain but had been a Town Major in Berlin as part of the occupying British forces. He had a letter from the War Office explicitly allowing him to use Major in civilian life, which he did.

 

[contrex]

I wonder if my father, then, could have called himself 'Squadron Leader XXXXX', as that was his acting rank upon leaving the RAF in 1945. He was a substantive Flt Lt. I am quite sure that he would not have wanted to!

 

[stuving]

I wonder if my father, then, could have called himself 'Squadron Leader XXXXX', as that was his acting rank upon leaving the RAF in 1945. He was a substantive Flt Lt. I am quite sure that he would not have wanted to!

My Grandfather finally resigned his commission, by then in the RAFVR, in 1954, as did most reservists. The entry in the Gazette on 20th July was headed by this notice:

There follows a long list of RAF officers ranked (of course!) top down. For each rank some are "retaining their rank", some are allowed a retained rank one up, and there are several "Flight Lieutenants, retaining the rank of Wing Commander".

My grandfather was only recently gazetted, then promoted in tiny grudging steps to Flying Officer (though he was definitively ground crew), and allowed to retain that rank. I have no evidence he did so - at the time he was workshop manager in a big car dealer's in Ipswich (probably Staggs), so would it have helped him?

So it's worth poking about in the Gazette, to see what you can find. Which may not be everything; I've never found Grandad's transfer to the reserve there, though it is in the RAF list.