When did the railways completely replace horse drawn transport

[Big Jumby 74]

Interesting thread, particularly use of horses in times of war. Saddened to read some recent knee jerk media (anti) reaction lately to the continued use of horses (for ceremonial reasons) in London, when in reality the problems amounted to the actions of others not noticing/taking account of horses being in the vicinity. And don't anyone dare say why should people expect horses on London streets today; they (horses) are part of our heritage, for long standing ceremonial reasons, particularly in London. Perhaps there is a lack of communication in this regard between the Mayors office and those in charge of 'building works in progress' particularly in the small hours, which is naturally the best time when HM's Cavalry need to practice for certain events?

 

[randyrippley]

I thought about that, but I suspect that it wasn’t a major factor as the military would have a large number of horses which were also surplus to requirements. Even if this was unbalanced by the way that many were abroad and they weren’t allowed or couldn’t afford to bring them back, I suspect that there were still plenty of horses at home that would have partially filled the gap. A factor may have been that a lot of young no longer wanted to spend hours plodding around the country and caring for horses, while a lorry was quicker and required less attention.

Horses rarely returned from British military expeditions overseas.
A lot became casualties. Those that didn't would generally be disposed of locally - in the case of WWI probably for food given the local tastes.
Having said that I seem to remember there was a rail-connected military horse rehabilitation hospital somewhere in the northwest - Southport area maybe?

Samuel Smith's Brewery still makes Shire horse-drawn deliveries in and around Tadcaster every week, and I actually saw the horses and dray while passing through Taddy on a Leeds to York bus one weekday last month.

Shire Horses | Samuel Smith's Brewery | Tadcaster | Yorkshire

Samuel Smith's Grey Shire Horses stabled at the brewery are used to deliver beer in and around Tadcaster five days a week.

samuelsmithsbrewery.co.uk

That's more to do with the chap who runs Sam Smiths refusing to spend any money.......
Most of the pubs haven't seen any paint in 20-30 years




Don't forget Blackpool still has horse taxis on the prom

 

[D6130]

IIRC, Aberdeen City Council Parks Department used horse-drawn wagons until quite recently for moving materials around the city's fourteen parks and to and from the central depot. They are, of course, very economical fuel-wise....and the emissions can be put to good use fertilising the flower beds!

 

[sprinterguy]

Samuel Smith's Brewery still makes Shire horse-drawn deliveries in and around Tadcaster every week, and I actually saw the horses and dray while passing through Taddy on a Leeds to York bus one weekday last month.

And Hook Norton brewery in Oxfordshire also still use theirs to deliver locally to this day - I think without interruption down the decades.

Hard to believe that it's quarter of a century ago now, but horse drawn dray deliveries were still undertaken to pubs local to the Vaux brewery in Sunderland until it's closure in 1999, too.

 

[weepingwillowb]

And Hook Norton brewery in Oxfordshire also still use theirs to deliver locally to this day - I think without interruption down the decades.

Hard to believe that it's quarter of a century ago now, but horse drawn dray deliveries were still undertaken to pubs local to the Vaux brewery in Sunderland until it's closure in 1999, too.

Tetley Brewery, Leeds, did too, until Carlsberg stopped it in 2006.

 

[Gloster]

It appears that Wadworth in Devizes still use horses for local deliveries, something that is probably worth a wad for the PR. It seems that even though the brewery is being moved out of the centre of town, the horses will be retained, but they will also move to Seend.

 

[D7666]

Interesting post @D7666 - roughly what part of the country and what decade would those recollections be from?

I grew up in rural part of sussex but not a remote place, in the 1970s but I knew a local farmer, by then retired largely, but he told me that electricity only got put down our lane after ww2 when he modernised his milking parlours to run off electric. Come to think of it not sure if they put the electricity in to allow more modern milking / agricultural practice, or if he modernised his milking parlours because the Electricity Board wired up the lane. So I'm thinking this would have probably been c1947

Nope

1962 electricity arrived where I lived then : western Hampshire, no under developed county by any means.

There was a government driven rural electrification program; the main part of my home village was on main electric in 1930s, but the scattered housing more than a mile off the main road through the village - was and still is a busy A road, and we had a railway then - were not connected.

Even then, 1962, not every house got a main connection, there were even more remote isolated houses that were provided with a local generator.

Although I was too young to appreciate this at the time - the joke was both a 132 kV transmission line right through the village - updated in 1970s to 432 kV and is still there now - and seperate 33 kV line passing through in a completely different orientation, one on big pylons (that were replaced by bigger pylons) and one on little pylons a.k.a. transmission towers if one wishes to be pedantic.)

 

[Rescars]

Does anyone know when horses were last used to haul canal barges in connection with rail traffic? IIRC a major manufacturer of nuts and bolts opened a factory in the Black Country just after WW2 where the entire output was taken by canal to nearby railway transhipment facilities - but in this case the motive power for the barges was human rather than horse!

Nope

1962 electricity arrived where I lived then : western Hampshire, no under developed county by any means.

There was a government driven rural electrification program; the main part of my home village was on main electric in 1930s, but the scattered housing more than a mile off the main road through the village - was and still is a busy A road, and we had a railway then - were not connected.

Even then, 1962, not every house got a main connection, there were even more remote isolated houses that were provided with a local generator.

Although I was too young to appreciate this at the time - the joke was both a 132 kV transmission line right through the village - updated in 1970s to 432 kV and is still there now - and seperate 33 kV line passing through in a completely different orientation, one on big pylons (that were replaced by bigger pylons) and one on little pylons a.k.a. transmission towers if one wishes to be pedantic.)

We may be straying a bit far from the OP, but whilst on the topic of electricity, no station on the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire Joint was ever equipped with electric lighting. It was gas or oil right up to closure in 1966.

 

[D7666]

You are of course quite correct. I was interpreting the location on a geographical rather than a constitutional basis. Speaking of which, horse drawn transport was used to convey the King to Westminster to open parliament just a few days ago. So horse-drawn transport in London isn't quite finished yet!

OK,
even so i do not think Douglas horse trams are any more than a tourist gimmick hence artificial.

Yes I am aware they are operated by and part of the local public transport system and "normal fares" apply nonetheless a ~1 mile line with a summer only service only, along a popular sea front beach esplanade, is nothing but deliberate "preserved" heritage tourist attraction.

Citing this one as an example of horse / animal powered transport is on a par with donkey rides on Bournemouth beach or a horse drawn tram at Crich (if they do that) or other museum.

 

[WesternLancer]

Nope

1962 electricity arrived where I lived then : western Hampshire, no under developed county by any means.

There was a government driven rural electrification program; the main part of my home village was on main electric in 1930s, but the scattered housing more than a mile off the main road through the village - was and still is a busy A road, and we had a railway then - were not connected.

Even then, 1962, not every house got a main connection, there were even more remote isolated houses that were provided with a local generator.

Although I was too young to appreciate this at the time - the joke was both a 132 kV transmission line right through the village - updated in 1970s to 432 kV and is still there now - and seperate 33 kV line passing through in a completely different orientation, one on big pylons (that were replaced by bigger pylons) and one on little pylons a.k.a. transmission towers if one wishes to be pedantic.)

Thanks interesting to read - indeed again not a remote location.

By 1947 I meant that was when I reckon it was wired up where I grew up.

 

[D7666]

Dunno if this link will survive and ignore the pointy arrow if that appears.

Location Map.

Location map of 414500,117500.

www.streetmap.co.uk

The main village was Breamore but then lived in Outwick; the specific house is the first immediately to the right of 'k' in Outwick; we had no mains until 1962, nor did any of that area named Upper Street or Flood Street or North Street.

Later - 1964 - we moved into the main part of the village, right on the main road, only 3-4 months before the railway closed. My mum insisted on a tele for the 1964 olympics (Tokyo) which is the first TV I saw.

Where Kiln Wood is marked, not now but there was then a single cottage, that got their own generator. If any one is familiar with Thomas Hardy's The Woodlanders, which is set further south west in Dorset, the local wood trade (including making sheep hurdles from ash) carried on there, and Hardy's description of the Dorset woodlands match Kiln Wood but of course there were many many similar locations.

You can see the present 432 kV line on that map approx west to east to the south of the village; the previous 132 kV line was more or less parallel.

 

[WesternLancer]

Dunno if this link will survive and ignore the pointy arrow if that appears.

Location Map.

Location map of 414500,117500.

www.streetmap.co.uk

The main village was Breamore but then lived in Outwick; the specific house is the first immediately to the right of 'k' in Outwick; we had no mains until 1962, nor did any of that area named Upper Street or Flood Street or North Street.

Later - 1964 - we moved into the main part of the village, rght on the main road, only 3-4 months before the railway closed. My mum insisted on a tele for the 1964 olympics (Tokyo) which is the first TV I saw.

Where Kiln Wood is marked, not now but there was then a single cottage, that got their own generator. If any one is famialir with Thomas Hardy The Woodlanders, which is set further south west in Dorset, the local wood trade (including making sheep hurdles from ash) carried on there, and Hardy's desciption of the Dorset woodlands match Kiln Wood but of ourse there were many many similar locations.

You can see the present 432 kV line on that map approx west to east to the south of the village; the previous 132 kV line was more or less parallel.

Yes, all shown clearly - as you say this period is not long ago in the great scheme of things

 

[D7666]

Yes, all shown clearly - as you say this period is not long ago in the great scheme of things

the link point to the 1:50000 map default, the "right of the k in Outwick" bit refers to the 1:25000 map


In the "great scheme of things" it was a place of contrasts if you look back on it.

Along the main road used to get outsize although not heavy road convoys of aircraft fuselage rings that I now know (or believe) were for 111 assembly at Hurn (from Bristol).

Overhead we had (again, I now know this but not at the time) Hawker Hunters doing west to east low level training runs using Fawley refinery, Marchwood power station, Southampton docks and Portsmouth dockyard as practice targets. I know now they were Hunters from that distinctive howling noise.

We had a bus route (38) then and still now even now (X3) two per hour on the main road.

All going on through and above a village partly without main electric, and with horse powered small holdings, milk maids and sheep hurdle making.

Almost worth a book on the lines of Flora Thompson's Lark Rise To Candleford.

 

[Gloster]

Having said that I seem to remember there was a rail-connected military horse rehabilitation hospital somewhere in the northwest - Southport area maybe?

There were wartime remount depots established at Lathom Park in the area between Ormskirk and Parbold (it was served by a siding from the L&Y at Skelmersdale), Shirehampton near Avonmouth and just west of Romsey; there was also a collecting centre at Southampton. Pre-war the Army Service Corps had depots at Dublin, Woolwich, Sysonby near Melton Mowbray, Arborfield Cross near Reading and Chiddingfold near Godalming.

Main source: The Long Long Trail website. (Plenty of entries on Google on the subject nowadays, all seemingly because of Warhorse. Millions killed and all they care about is one horse!)

 

[6Gman]

IIRC, Aberdeen City Council Parks Department used horse-drawn wagons until quite recently for moving materials around the city's fourteen parks and to and from the central depot. They are, of course, very economical fuel-wise....and the emissions can be put to good use fertilising the flower beds!

And no lorry has ever given birth to its own replacement!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

In the UK , if not Britain , the Fintona branch in Northern Ireland was horse-worked until closure in 1957. Famously the various horses used over the years were always called 'Dick', irrespective of gender. The tram they pulled still exists in the Ulster Transport Museum.

 

[Belperpete]

And Hook Norton brewery in Oxfordshire also still use theirs to deliver locally to this day - I think without interruption down the decades.

Hard to believe that it's quarter of a century ago now, but horse drawn dray deliveries were still undertaken to pubs local to the Vaux brewery in Sunderland until it's closure in 1999, too.

Young's were still delivering by horse dray in London until 2006.

As well as the rag & bone man, our local coalman in south London was still delivering by horse and cart when I was young.

 

[Magdalia]

Tetley Brewery, Leeds, did too, until Carlsberg stopped it in 2006.

Young's were still delivering by horse dray in London until 2006.

Another brewery that stopped delivering by horse and dray in 2006 was Adnams, that being when they opened the distribution centre ay Reydon.

 

[etr221]

Apparently for many years a standard question for new management trainees at Young's was 'How can improve the business', to which the common answer was 'get rid of horses to save many' - to which the repost was 'go and do the sums, and tell us how much we'll save' - which was followed a few days later by return of shamefaced management trainee, who would say he'd done the sums, and this is how much it would cost... (even without an allowance for the good will and publicity value of the horses)

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I don't know how long horse-drawn taxis lasted as mainstream transport though

One of the pieces by the journalist H. V. Morton collected in the book 'In Search of London' includes an account of his nostalgic surprise at encountering a Hansom Cab in the early 1920s.

Wikipedia states that by the early 1920s horse-drawn cabs had been largely superseded by motor vehicles, but the last licence for one in London was not relinquished until 1947.

 

[eldomtom2]

I always find useless statistics like that amusing.

Animals killed / die / sold / bought / born on a random basis irrespective of audits. The returns from the "depots" on head count almost certainly changed before reaching the HQ bean counters and such a figure is unlike to be exactly 9193 but more like 9200 +/- 100 if not a bigger range.

Even doing a count at exactly say 12:00 on audit day produces impractical data as up to 11:59 and from 12:01 the counts are different.

Of course the precise accuracy of figure doesn't change the fact that we can be fairly certain the number of horses employed by the railways at nationalisation was significantly lower than it was thirty years prior.

 

[Taunton]

There was a temporary uptick in the figures during WW2, when petrol was in short supply, and there were various cases of going back to horses, including a few who even cut holes in their van fronts (they were simpler vehicles then!) for the reins. More generally, the old skills were still there.

 

[billh]

Does anyone know when horses were last used to haul canal barges in connection with rail traffic? IIRC a major manufacturer of nuts and bolts opened a factory in the Black Country just after WW2 where the entire output was taken by canal to nearby railway transhipment facilities - but in this case the motive power for the barges was human rather than horse!

2005, horseboat Maria, ex MSLR/GCR/LNER was loaded by hand with 16 tons of stone at Bugsworth Basin on the Peak Forest Canal and conveyed by one horsepower the 14 miles to Guide Bridge via the 16 Marple locks. On arrival at the destination , the stone was then placed in narrow gauge skip wagons for reballasting the internal railway system and road improvements. The event was linked to the original traffic for which Maria was constructed, that of transporting railway ballast for the MSLR from 1860 until around 1880. The three mentioned railway companies owned the Peak Forest, Macclesfield and Ashton Canals successively until nationalisation in 1948.

 

[weepingwillowb]

I saw a horse-drawn wagon loaded with scrap metal in Lancaster, on Wednesday this week, going past Sainsbury's and heading out of town. If only I'd had my camera with me.