When did travelling by rail become so expensive.

[Craig]

I've just gone onto the National Rail website to check the price of a return from Newcastle to Leeds (out on a Saturday and returning on Sunday). It had a think for a while and came back with a price of £13.00. Seems quite reasonable, however that is for two advance single which is no good for me, as I'm not sure what time I'll be returning. Going into the returns section, the price leaps up to a rather staggering £43.80 for a saver/off-peak return or £54.40 for an open/anytime return.

Is it just me, or does that seem like a bit of a **** take for a 90 mile journey? If it wasn't for the fact I won't have my car that weekend I'd be quite tempted to just drive down.

 

[nedchester]

I've just gone onto the National Rail website to check the price of a return from Newcastle to Leeds (out on a Saturday and returning on Sunday). It had a think for a while and came back with a price of £13.00. Seems quite reasonable, however that is for two advance single which is no good for me, as I'm not sure what time I'll be returning. Going into the returns section, the price leaps up to a rather staggering £43.80 for a saver/off-peak return or £54.40 for an open/anytime return.

Is it just me, or does that seem like a bit of a **** take for a 90 mile journey? If it wasn't for the fact I won't have my car that weekend I'd be quite tempted to just drive down.

Funny you should say that cos I was only thinking the other day that I used to travel all over the place and the cost was never that much.

I suspect that since 1994 there has been a steady increase in walk on fares because the TOCs want to control when people travel. One of the big advantages of train travel is the ability to be able to just turn up and go.

Basically it's a rip off.

 

[me123]

I've always liked the idea of cheaper AP fares, but I agree that the price is astronomical in some places. The MAN-EUS SDR is an example of this, at about £200 IIRC. Living in Glasgow, we at least have some decent subsidised fares (well, for now), and on my two ventures into England I found myself shocked at the cost. Travel to York as well, from Glasgow, is insane.

I just wish rail would be more attractive, simply for the environment. Travelling solo may be cheaper nowadays, but group travel by train is now just too expensive to be practical.

 

[Craig]

Well until a few years ago I had a PRIV, so was used to fairly cheap fares (although sometimes they were often a bit more expensive than AP, albeit lot more flexible). Since they I've found myself travelling by train less and less as I either have to commit myself to particular trains in advance which often doesn't suit my plans, or pay through the nose for a turn up and go ticket.

Travelling solo may be cheaper nowadays, but group travel by train is now just too expensive to be practical.

This seems to be the case. If I was driving this journey it'd cost about £25 for petrol, say £40ish to include insurance/tax/etc. I'll be travelling on own so the costs are more or less the same. If I was travelling with someone else the cost per person for the car would half (assuming both were paying the same share), but the train cost per person would remain the same (effectively doubling the cost of the trip).

 

[rail-britain]

I've just gone onto the National Rail website to check the price of a return from Newcastle to Leeds (out on a Saturday and returning on Sunday)
came back with a price of £13.00 for two advance single
£43.80 for a saver/off-peak return or £54.40 for an open/anytime return

That's about the going rate, based on mileage and journey time
Typically an advance fare is about 1/2 of the open return fare
It works out at between 25p and 40p per mile, for most open return fares

A crazy money saving option may be to break the ticket ordering for a station en-route and compare
Say Newcastle - York, York - Leeds or Newcastle - Durham, Durham - Leeds or even Newcastle - Durham, Durham - York, York - Leeds

I know when I travel to Darlington it is cheaper to split the journey at Edinburgh and Newcastle
When I travel to Manchester the cheapest option is to split the journey at Preston

 

[yorkie]

If you were going for a day trip, I'd say split tickets at Leeds, this does save a fair bit of money.

Unfortunately there's not much you can do if returning another day.

You save about £5 by booking to South Milford (this is valid via Leeds) but the price is still high.

 

[Craig]

I'll have a better idea of what I'm doing nearer the time, so might be able to book a couple of AP tickets or come back same day and split the ticket. It'd be nice to just be able to book 1 reasonably priced ticket that was semi-flexible though.

 

[furryfeet]

when the DoT decided to try and reduce the subsidy paid by the treasury, by allowing the TOC's to increase the fares by whatever means possible. They would like the subsidy / farebox ratio to change from 50:50 to 25subsidy : 75 farebox

And since the TOC's are allowed to get away with it, then they do ! Watchdog bodies like passenger focus have no regulatory teeth to cap or prevent fare rises, be they "by stealth" or if they just are put up, sometimes 3 times in a year !

So i would mention this to your local politician, next time he comes knocking on your door - if they realise that hire public transport fares will cost vites, then perhaps they will do something about it before the next election.

 

[rail-britain]

Another thing I've noticed is that a small number of AP tickets seem to become available in the last few days
I was looking to book a Euston - Glasgow, weekday afternoon FC
When booking first opened the price was £116 single
A week later it was £59
With a month to go it had fallen to £39, but that lasted just two days
It then went back to £89 and sat at that price
However, with just two days to go it went back to £59 and I booked at that price
There is quite a similar pattern on other routes

 

[theblackwatch]

Funny you should say that cos I was only thinking the other day that I used to travel all over the place and the cost was never that much.

I suspect that since 1994 there has been a steady increase in walk on fares because the TOCs want to control when people travel. One of the big advantages of train travel is the ability to be able to just turn up and go.

Basically it's a rip off.

And coincidentally I was only saying to Yorkie earlier today how I used to go about on reasonably priced tickets in the early 90s. Back in those days, my money was a lot tighter, but I have no recollections of not being able to afford trips or thinking tickets were too expensive, although admittedly I had a YP then. All tickets were 'walk on', there was no such thing as Advance Purchase in those days (or if there was, it was very rare).

In 1991 I used to record how much my days out had cost me, so I've dug out the old book. In May of that year I did Leeds-Skegness return one Saturday for £11.70 (I assume this was a Supersaver/Blue Saver). The full fare for that ticket would have been £17.70. Checking my NFM68, this had increased to £27.40 by January 1998. Looking now, it would cost £40.50.

Similarly, in September 91, a Harrogate-Llandudno set me back £17.00 (around £26 without a YP). In 1998, it was £41.80 for a Supersaver, now it would cost £55.00 for a Saver.

I'd better not mention walk on fares on Cross Country, with their extra restrictions!

 

[nedchester]

Which is what I was saying.

You've at least come up with documentary evidence of all these price rises. It's a scandal. No wonder I drive so many places...........

 

[me123]

To be fair, inflation has driven costs up in general since 1990 and £17 is worth a lot more than it was. And, of course, the cost of fuel as well means rail travel should remain competative. Prices should quite rightly be higher just now with the current state of the economy, but the extent of many fare hikes is absolutely gobsmacking. The profit-centric fares on many operators, and crosscountry seem to be the worst offenders from what I've seen, are just insane.

The two places where I can see rasonable fares are Scotland and Virgin West Coast for services North of Preston. XC and NXEC fares are absolutely huge for some reason, and Northern/TPE don't really represent value for money either (although Northern have an excellent selection of Rangers and Rovers to be fair).

 

[rail-britain]

The two places where I can see rasonable fares are Scotland and Virgin West Coast for services North of Preston

Take a train between Glasgow or Edinburgh and Preston, and you will see why fares are so low
Weekdays most services are quite quiet, arrive at Preston and the train is then near to capacity!

Weekends are even better
I had an entire First Class coach to myself, out and back

 

[djw1981]

Don't forget that the 'real cost of motoring' is determined by HMRC to now be 56p per mile to cover wear & tear, petrol, maintenance, tax etc.

 

[me123]

I don't doubt you for one moment, m8internet. I once had (I think) a whole Pendolino to myself going to Carlisle! To be fair, the train does not normally run, but one person on a 9 carriage train just seems silly.

 

[furryfeet]

inflation has driven costs up in general since 1990 and £17 is worth a lot more than it was. Prices should quite rightly be higher just now with the current state of the economy.

Two points:-

with the credit crunch, people have less money to spend on travel, so i would expect the railway companies to reduce their prices, to encourage people to use the train, not car.

£17 is worth less now than in 1990 - it has been eroded by inflation !

What has upset many observers is the massive rises in real terms since privatisation - can someone on this forum give the biggest percentage increase in a point to point journey that has occurred since 1997, whether it is a direct rise, or an indirect rise by changes in conditions, or the abolition of a certain ticket.

See what you can come up with ! ( a moderator may find it appropriate to put this in a quiz forum )

 

[rail-britain]

with the credit crunch, people have less money to spend on travel, so i would expect the railway companies to reduce their prices, to encourage people to use the train, not car

The opposite effect will actually occur
Due to the increased costs of petrol and diesel, people will reduce their car use in the short-term, and temporarily use bus or rail
I have already noted that here in Cumbernauld, where the car park is usually at about 40-50% during the day, but for the last three months it has been nearer 70%, which is very usual given the schools are off
It will be interesting to see how this shifts over the next three months
However, this may be due to one of the main car parks in Glasgow city centre currently being closed

The same has also been noted at Croy, which people use to get to Edinburgh (as travelling to Edinburgh from Cumbernauld is almost double the journey time!)
The car park was recently extended, with capacity at or near 80%, but it is already full by 07:30 and remains like that until 18:00

 

[FusionRail]

Breaking the journey, the right amount seems to work.

A journey I sometimes do, Kettering to Barry Island for example.

I get a Saver return to Lydney (£30.35), then a single from Lydney to Barry (£4.50), and the day i want to come back home, I just purchase a Barry to Lydney (£4.50) ticket.

That comes out at £39.50, which is easily £20 or more cheaper than a Saver return for the whole route!

But also, if I were to split the trip down any further, the price does increase.

 

[digitaltoast]

Breaking the journey, the right amount seems to work.
That comes out at £39.50, which is easily £20 or more cheaper than a Saver return for the whole route!

A crazy money saving option may be to break the ticket ordering for a station en-route and compare

And you can often save crazy money.
I went from Welshpool to Southampton a few days ago - simple advanced ticket was something nuts like £57.

Breaking at Birmingham, but getting the same trains at the same time made it
WLP > BHM £9
BHM > SOU £20.50
total of £29.50, saving £27.50.

It is nearly ALWAYS worth splitting the ticket.

when the DoT decided to try and reduce the subsidy paid by the treasury, by allowing the TOC's to increase the fares by whatever means possible. They would like the subsidy / farebox ratio to change from 50:50 to 25subsidy : 75 farebox

I recently heard the lamest, most pathetic excuse for train prices for a long time.
Sniffely beardy unemployable chap said: "It's Thatcher's legacy".

Riiight, wasn't she, like, 20 years ago?

And didn't you, like, have 10 years to do something, but instead you broke your election pledges on rail travel?

(In fact, I came back with such an excellent demolishing of his argument that I think I nearly made him cry!).

We need a Michael Oleary of the rail industry. How come I took a plane trip to Rome for £10 ALL IN last year, but the train trip would be £380?

Oh, and another excuse of my loony-left nemesis was "the Tories put tax on train fuel and made fuel free for the airlines". There are only three things wrong in that sentence - both plane and train fuel is tax free, so it demolishes that one too.

Since "simplification" of fares, I estimate I've spent another £400-£500 on rail travel that I did before simplification. I'm have a long, drawn out and sometimes quite tetchy argument with Passenger Focus regarding this - simplification was their bloody idea, and I'm going to make them pay in aggravation!

 

[P156KWJ]

speaking of stupidly priced fares - I've noticed that operators (especially XC) are very cheeky that they don't inform passengers of fare increases. Okay, maybe it wasn't that much - and they are allowed to do it, but a child CDR from Nottingham to Derby used to cost £2.10 with Central Trains. when XC came along that increased to £2.15 (no warning), and now in a few months it has gone up to £2.35, and XC have added extra restrictions to CDRs, and with that particualr one I can only go after 0930 and return from Derby before 1530 unless I wait until 1930 (I think) except on weekends :???:

 

[rail-britain]

XC have added extra restrictions to CDRs, and with that particualr one I can only go after 0930

I thought that was standard for a weekday CDR

 

[paul1609]

I think that TOCs should be looking at phasing out child discounts in the peak hours except for season tickets on school days. Why should children who occupy a whole seat expect a discount?

 

[adamp]

Cant go to the Heaton Depot open day due to the price of a Manchester Pic. To Newcastle return. Its stupid!!

 

[Nick W]

I think that TOCs should be looking at phasing out child discounts in the peak hours except for season tickets on school days. Why should children who occupy a whole seat expect a discount?

One wonders why they should pay at all to go to the nearest type of school of their choice. Education is free for everyone and why discriminate against those who have a long commute?

With no yp discount I was driving to school for the last few months as it was cheaper. Had my school been in the same county, my season ticket would have been paid for.

 

[yorkie]

I thought that was standard for a weekday CDR

On XC 0930 is standard.

You are not suggesting there is a national standard are you?! If so, you will be in for a massive shock if you see the list of validity codes!!!

BTW on FSR the standard is 0915.

 

[Pumbaa]

On XC 0930 is standard.

You are not suggesting there is a national standard are you?! If so, you will be in for a massive shock if you see the list of validity codes!!!

BTW on FSR the standard is 0915.

Is there a copy of said validity codes available to download somewhere?

 

[yorkie]

Is there a copy of said validity codes available to download somewhere?

Not an up-to-date list, but see

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM98/NFM98_Common_E.pdf

for NFM98

 

[RJ]

First Great Western charge £5.80 for a return from Paddington - Hanwell, a 7.5 mile journey :roll:.

 

[furryfeet]

I thought that was standard for a weekday CDR

this statement is economic with the truth !

the big stink with Arriva XC and their cheap day returns is the introduction of afternoon /evening restrictions, as mentioned by sulzer 25

 

[yorkie]

this statement is economic with the truth !

the big stink with Arriva XC and their cheap day returns is the introduction of afternoon /evening restrictions, as mentioned by sulzer 25

Depending on the journey taken, it may be possible to avoid the restrictions. This is, unfortunately, tricky on routes where no other TOC serves such as PBO-LEI-BHM; you're stuffed there.