When MML electrification reaches Leicester, what service patterns could operate?

[evergreenadam]

A few weeks back I mentioned this as a credible idea, detailed above. While the leg to Northampton is difficult due to the terrain being rather wet, the leg from Corby to Peterboro' is easily doable.



Stations north of Bedford would be better situated via Corby to Peterborough on a single train rather than reversal (if serving Bedford) or a change. Also easier to get funding and local support if billed as a "Northamptonshire Powerhouse Railway" linking Wellingboro', Kettering and Corby (3 towns in need of TLC) to Peterborough.

I like that idea, the reopening of the Northampton to Wellingborough line would have extra costs but would provide new benefits. It could also avoid the cost of electrification for Corby to Peterborough and the cost of a significant increase in the EMU fleet size as the service could be operated by DMUs, rather than the 12 coach EMUs if the St. Pancras to Corby service were to be extended.

However I am not sure there is sufficient track capacity between Wellingborough and Kettering for an extra DMU each hour.

 

[Merle Haggard]

A few weeks back I mentioned this as a credible idea, detailed above. While the leg to Northampton is difficult due to the terrain being rather wet, the leg from Corby to Peterboro' is easily doable.

I don't understand this.
The A45 goes along the Nene valley between the two towns and I don't recall it ever being closed due to flooding. Similarly, I travelled on the railway line quite a few times and never encountered a problem either. There were considerable flood relief schemes on the Nene in the 1950s
The Northampton - Market Harborough line did have problems with wet in the cuttings, not flooding, due to poorly maintained drainage. I do recall travelling on the up Glasgow when we came to a halt near Spratton because a telegraph pole had rotted away at its base, and fallen across the track.

 

[A0wen]

I don't understand this.
The A45 goes along the Nene valley between the two towns and I don't recall it ever being closed due to flooding. Similarly, I travelled on the railway line quite a few times and never encountered a problem either. There were considerable flood relief schemes on the Nene in the 1950s
The Northampton - Market Harborough line did have problems with wet in the cuttings, not flooding, due to poorly maintained drainage. I do recall travelling on the up Glasgow when we came to a halt near Spratton because a telegraph pole had rotted away at its base, and fallen across the track.

The railway line ran along the bottom of the valley - much lower than either the current A45 or the "old" A45, now A4500.

The flood relief schemes are designed to stop flooding happening in Northampton, so the low lying land floods first - which is why Billing Aquadrome Caravan park flooded just before Christmas (as seen on national news) and the Cogenhoe Mill caravan park, which is across the old railway formation, also floods.

I like that idea, the reopening of the Northampton to Wellingborough line would have extra costs but would provide new benefits. It could also avoid the cost of electrification for Corby to Peterborough and the cost of a significant increase in the EMU fleet size as the service could be operated by DMUs, rather than the 12 coach EMUs if the St. Pancras to Corby service were to be extended.

However I am not sure there is sufficient track capacity between Wellingborough and Kettering for an extra DMU each hour.

Northampton - Wellingborough will never happen - there simply isn't the demand to support it.

Add in the old formation is sub-optimal, running along way from anywhere between Northampton & Wellingborough and the fact the formation into Wellingborough has gone. Using Bald Rick's £ 30-40m / mile 'wet finger in air' cost of rail replacement, you'd be in for a bill of over £ 400m for this one. And with nowhere practical for the services to go once they arrive at Northampton - can't go south because the line's already nearing capacity, can't go north, because whilst you might get to Rugby, then where ?

It's a crazy idea which crops up on these boards, along with reopening to Peterboro every so often, but which is in complete denial of reality.

The couple of things in Northamptonshire which *might* be worth looking are:

'Rushden Parkway' station, on the road between Rushden & Irchester. Rushden's growing and has a population of over 30k now. Add in Wellingborough station's going to get alot busier with the housing being built around that, lessening the demand at Wellingborough wouldn't be a bad thing.

Northampton South gets touted every so often, not convinced by that one. IMO, Roade would be a better bet, whilst it's small, it also has a lot of development taking place and could provide a better railhead for Towcester than Northampton or MK do.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The railway line ran along the bottom of the valley - much lower than either the current A45 or the "old" A45, now A4500.

The flood relief schemes are designed to stop flooding happening in Northampton, so the low lying land floods first - which is why Billing Aquadrome Caravan park flooded just before Christmas (as seen on national news) and the Cogenhoe Mill caravan park, which is across the old railway formation, also floods.

Fair comment, but a new railway doesn't have to follow the old alignment. I'm sure you know, but for the benefit of others, the Blisworth - Peterborough and Northampton - Market Harborough lines were built cheaply and quickly for strategic reasons* and the easy way to get a level alignment (to suit the traction of the times) at low cost was following the bottom of the river valley.

My personal opinion is that having an improved railway service does not create as much growth as the proponents claim; Northampton, which has been a large town for a millennium, was not particularly affected by being by-passed by the L&B and is still growing fast even with a poor rail service Northwards and a not-great service to London.

As an aside, I live close to (but well up-hill from!) the caravan park. It was originally conceived as a holiday retreat, but from the complaints of people that our council re-housed it seems to be used as year round housing. Myself, I would have been wary about what might happen if I lived all year in an 'Aquadrome' near a river that flooded every winter, but, similarly, the residents of posh new houses in Kislingbury were surprised when their houses flooded the first winter - even though their road was named 'Watersmeet'

* to make it difficult for competing railways to obtain assent for their lines.

 

[A0wen]

Fair comment, but a new railway doesn't have to follow the old alignment. I'm sure you know, but for the benefit of others, the Blisworth - Peterborough and Northampton - Market Harborough lines were built cheaply and quickly for strategic reasons* and the easy way to get a level alignment (to suit the traction of the times) at low cost was following the bottom of the river valley.

My personal opinion is that having an improved railway service does not create as much growth as the proponents claim; Northampton, which has been a large town for a millennium, was not particularly affected by being by-passed by the L&B and is still growing fast even with a poor rail service Northwards and a not-great service to London.

As an aside, I live close to (but well up-hill from!) the caravan park. It was originally conceived as a holiday retreat, but from the complaints of people that our council re-housed it seems to be used as year round housing. Myself, I would have been wary about what might happen if I lived all year in an 'Aquadrome' near a river that flooded every winter, but, similarly, the residents of posh new houses in Kislingbury were surprised when their houses flooded the first winter - even though their road was named 'Watersmeet'

* to make it difficult for competing railways to obtain assent for their lines.

Well, like you, I live in the area.

In which case you'll know that any other formation between Northampton and Wellingborough would be difficult or horrifically costly with tunnels etc. It would almost be easier (and I'm not for a second advocating this) to build directly between Northampton and Kettering - but that was never done by the Victorians and I can probably guess why.

 

[evergreenadam]

The railway line ran along the bottom of the valley - much lower than either the current A45 or the "old" A45, now A4500.

The flood relief schemes are designed to stop flooding happening in Northampton, so the low lying land floods first - which is why Billing Aquadrome Caravan park flooded just before Christmas (as seen on national news) and the Cogenhoe Mill caravan park, which is across the old railway formation, also floods.


Northampton - Wellingborough will never happen - there simply isn't the demand to support it.

Add in the old formation is sub-optimal, running along way from anywhere between Northampton & Wellingborough and the fact the formation into Wellingborough has gone. Using Bald Rick's £ 30-40m / mile 'wet finger in air' cost of rail replacement, you'd be in for a bill of over £ 400m for this one. And with nowhere practical for the services to go once they arrive at Northampton - can't go south because the line's already nearing capacity, can't go north, because whilst you might get to Rugby, then where ?

It's a crazy idea which crops up on these boards, along with reopening to Peterboro every so often, but which is in complete denial of reality.

The couple of things in Northamptonshire which *might* be worth looking are:

'Rushden Parkway' station, on the road between Rushden & Irchester. Rushden's growing and has a population of over 30k now. Add in Wellingborough station's going to get alot busier with the housing being built around that, lessening the demand at Wellingborough wouldn't be a bad thing.

Northampton South gets touted every so often, not convinced by that one. IMO, Roade would be a better bet, whilst it's small, it also has a lot of development taking place and could provide a better railhead for Towcester than Northampton or MK do.

Rushden Parkway would certainly be worth considering but not sure there are sufficient train paths on the line between Wellingborough and Bedford to accommodate an additional station call in the Corby services. The half hourly service to London would be attractive.

The extent to which a new station would abstract demand from Wellingborough would partly depend on fares. I recall there were howls of protest about the retention of the significant premium in fares for journeys from Wellingborough compared to Bedford when Wellingborough lost its MML IC services.

 

[adrock1976]

The railway line ran along the bottom of the valley - much lower than either the current A45 or the "old" A45, now A4500.

The flood relief schemes are designed to stop flooding happening in Northampton, so the low lying land floods first - which is why Billing Aquadrome Caravan park flooded just before Christmas (as seen on national news) and the Cogenhoe Mill caravan park, which is across the old railway formation, also floods.


Northampton - Wellingborough will never happen - there simply isn't the demand to support it.

Add in the old formation is sub-optimal, running along way from anywhere between Northampton & Wellingborough and the fact the formation into Wellingborough has gone. Using Bald Rick's £ 30-40m / mile 'wet finger in air' cost of rail replacement, you'd be in for a bill of over £ 400m for this one. And with nowhere practical for the services to go once they arrive at Northampton - can't go south because the line's already nearing capacity, can't go north, because whilst you might get to Rugby, then where ?

It's a crazy idea which crops up on these boards, along with reopening to Peterboro every so often, but which is in complete denial of reality.

The couple of things in Northamptonshire which *might* be worth looking are:

'Rushden Parkway' station, on the road between Rushden & Irchester. Rushden's growing and has a population of over 30k now. Add in Wellingborough station's going to get alot busier with the housing being built around that, lessening the demand at Wellingborough wouldn't be a bad thing.

Northampton South gets touted every so often, not convinced by that one. IMO, Roade would be a better bet, whilst it's small, it also has a lot of development taking place and could provide a better railhead for Towcester than Northampton or MK do.

On the subject of Northamptonshire, what is your view if there is ever a suggestion for Althorpe Park station to be reopened?

I have had a quick look at the satellite view on Google Maps a while ago, and it seems to be a very large park with little residential development (also, is that the Althorpe Park that is the resting place of Diana Spencer?).

At the other end of the loop line, I am aware that Warwickshire County Council are pushing for the reopening of Hillmorton station at Crick Road, so as to act as a parkway station for Rugby.

 

[A0wen]

On the subject of Northamptonshire, what is your view if there is ever a suggestion for Althorpe Park station to be reopened?

I have had a quick look at the satellite view on Google Maps a while ago, and it seems to be a very large park with little residential development (also, is that the Althorpe Park that is the resting place of Diana Spencer?).

At the other end of the loop line, I am aware that Warwickshire County Council are pushing for the reopening of Hillmorton station at Crick Road, so as to act as a parkway station for Rugby.

There are more sheep than people in the area where the railway crosses the A428...... Not sure a station would make much sense there given Long Buckby's close at hand.

As for a second station at Rugby...... Rugby's a town of 75,000 people - not sure that somehow justifies a second station. Add in it will further slow down the Northampton - Birmingham services, which are already slower than they used to be by having to serve random stops between Coventry & Birmingham.

 

[zwk500]

There are more sheep than people in the area where the railway crosses the A428...... Not sure a station would make much sense there given Long Buckby's close at hand.

I agree, it wouldn't make any sense.

As for a second station at Rugby...... Rugby's a town of 75,000 people - not sure that somehow justifies a second station. Add in it will further slow down the Northampton - Birmingham services, which are already slower than they used to be by having to serve random stops between Coventry & Birmingham.

Population alone is a poor metric to judge a parkway station on. These stations work best either if there's a heavy demand for trips into the town centre but no realistic way to improve road capacity, or where there are large suburban populations looking to travel beyond the town.

Rugby fails quite badly on the first category, as the station is not well sited for the town centre and there's not particularly heavy demand from outside the town itself. But Crick, Kilsby and Barlsby are very nearby and Daventry and Lutterworth are large towns that don't have any rail link to either Birmingham or London. At the moment they have to either fight into Rugby/Northampton town centre or just drive all the way. A Rugby Parkway may well encourage a reasonable amount of modal shift from those 2 towns which are only a 30 minute drive away.

 

[A0wen]

I agree, it wouldn't make any sense.

Population alone is a poor metric to judge a parkway station on. These stations work best either if there's a heavy demand for trips into the town centre but no realistic way to improve road capacity, or where there are large suburban populations looking to travel beyond the town.

Rugby fails quite badly on the first category, as the station is not well sited for the town centre and there's not particularly heavy demand from outside the town itself. But Crick, Kilsby and Barlsby are very nearby and Daventry and Lutterworth are large towns that don't have any rail link to either Birmingham or London. At the moment they have to either fight into Rugby/Northampton town centre or just drive all the way. A Rugby Parkway may well encourage a reasonable amount of modal shift from those 2 towns which are only a 30 minute drive away.

Daventry's got Long Buckby - which is only 4 miles away and is much easier than getting to Rugby. Crick and Kilsby are small places (sub 2000) and are a similar distance to Long Buckby as Daventry.

Lutterworth's also small (sub 10k) - I'm not sure there's *that much* traffic trying to get to Birmingham from there. More likely Leicester and Coventry, which a parkway station at Rugby would make no difference to, because it's the wrong way for Leicester and it's not a direct way to Coventry.

Hillmorton Junction to Rugby is just over a mile (according to Railmiles), so whilst Warks CC may wish for a station near DIRFT as a nice thing to have because they've agreed to all the housing development on the site of the old Rugby Radio masts, it's a completely stupid idea which will just slow down longer distance services. Even the 3 stations which serve MK are at least 2.5 miles apart - and we're talking about somewhere the size of MK - Rugby's a 1/3rd of that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hillmorton Junction to Rugby is just over a mile (according to Railmiles), so whilst Warks CC may wish for a station near DIRFT as a nice thing to have because they've agreed to all the housing development on the site of the old Rugby Radio masts, it's a completely stupid idea which will just slow down longer distance services. Even the 3 stations which serve MK are at least 2.5 miles apart - and we're talking about somewhere the size of MK - Rugby's a 1/3rd of that.

What long distance services? It would be served by LNR services which are not long distance services; any long distance use of these services is purely incidental and should not drive the approach to development of such services. The fast long distance services are Avanti's which I wouldn't expect to serve that station, it would be the 3tph of LNR services on the Birmingham route.

In my view a DIRFT station is an excellent idea for many reasons, not only the ones you in my view incorrectly put down. How about it being a destination for work, for one more?

And DIRFT is about 6km from Rugby "Hbf", so your distances are way off, too. Railmiles is clearly wrong or you're misusing it in some way. Have a check of an OS map or Google Maps.

 

[Aictos]

Where are you hoping people will connect to when they get to Peterborough? Isn't the eastern leg of EWR going to create many of the better rail links that extension of Corby trains (via a very indirect route) would offer?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-extension-of-emr-electrics-beyond-corby.193813

Point of order here but the route between Northampton and Peterborough via Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby and Oundle is operated by Stagecoach as their Stagecoach Gold X4 route which serves the main areas of population along the Nene Valley.

Granted the end to end journey has a average time of 3.5hrs but I would think that most traffic is intermediate traffic.

IF a railway service was to be considered then it would have to be faster then the already established route that Stagecoach operates.

 

[A0wen]

What long distance services? It would be served by LNR services which are not long distance services; any long distance use of these services is purely incidental and should not drive the approach to development of such services. The fast long distance services are Avanti's which I wouldn't expect to serve that station, it would be the 3tph of LNR services on the Birmingham route.

In my view a DIRFT station is an excellent idea for many reasons, not only the ones you in my view incorrectly put down. How about it being a destination for work, for one more?

And DIRFT is about 6km from Rugby "Hbf", so your distances are way off, too. Railmiles is clearly wrong or you're misusing it in some way. Have a check of an OS map or Google Maps.

Last time I checked London - Birmingham services (even LNR ones) were 'long distance' - clearly you have a different definition of 'long distance' - even Northampton - Birmingham could reasonably be classed as 'long distance'. And your claim that "any long distance use of these services is purely incidental " is laughable, given they are the only services which Northampton gets to Birmingham. Sitting on your cloud in MK it's all very easy when you have a choice of services, back in the real world (which isn't your world) things are a little less clear cut.

You miss the point with DIRFT - firstly a station at Hillmorton Road would be anything between 1.5 and 3 miles from the current units on DIRFT, such is the scale of the site. Secondly, most of the jobs on DIRFT are warehouse ones, they work shifts which often start at odd times which don't align well with train timetables. And being warehouse jobs they tend to be lower paid - so the people working there tend to live locally, so Rugby itself or Daventry - for which a bus is a cheaper and more effective form of transport. I doubt there are many (any?) warehouse workers who live in Northampton that go to DIRFT, simply because there are no shortage of similar jobs in Northampton at Swan Valley, Grange Park and the soon to be built hub on the old Courteenhall Estate.

I'd used Hillmorton Junc for the distance to Rugby station, so maybe it's a bit over 2 miles - fact is it would be the same distance again from that station to the 'middle' of the current DIRFT site using Google Earth - and the DIRFT site is being extended another 3 miles up the A5 to where the truck stop is. So at that point the station would be about 5 miles away.

That said - we're drifting way off topic now.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Population of Rugby; 75,000 and Daventry District (the railhead for which is Long Buckby) ; 77.800.+
But Rugby needs two stations...

And of Northampton; 229,000, Milton Keynes, 184,000 *
But its Ok to add yet another stop in the Northampton - Birmingham service (9 at the moment). There's 2 stops Milton Keynes - Birmingham.
Right...

+source - council websites

* source - '100 largest UK towns and cities'

100 Largest Cities and Towns in the UK by Population | The Geographist

The 100 largest cities and towns in the United Kingdom ranked by population. London is the most populous city in the UK, followed by Birmingham and Glasgow.

www.thegeographist.com

 

[Senex]

Population of Rugby; 75,000 and Daventry District (the railhead for which is Long Buckby) ; 77.800.+
But Rugby needs two stations...

And of Northampton; 229,000, Milton Keynes, 184,000 *
But its Ok to add yet another stop in the Northampton - Birmingham service (9 at the moment). There's 2 stops Milton Keynes - Birmingham.
Right...

+source - council websites

* source - '100 largest UK towns and cities'

100 Largest Cities and Towns in the UK by Population | The Geographist

The 100 largest cities and towns in the United Kingdom ranked by population. London is the most populous city in the UK, followed by Birmingham and Glasgow.

www.thegeographist.com

Does anyone know anyting about "The Geographist"? And what is the methodology they use here for calculating the sizes? All they tell us is, "Please note that this list is unrelated to local authority boundaries, and is instead based on urban sub-divisions." We are no told what the urban sub-divisions are or how they are chosen to be included.

 

[zwk500]

Does anyone know anyting about "The Geographist"? And what is the methodology they use here for calculating the sizes? All they tell us is, "Please note that this list is unrelated to local authority boundaries, and is instead based on urban sub-divisions." We are no told what the urban sub-divisions are or how they are chosen to be included.

The more pertinent point is, as I mentioned in a reply above, that Population is a very bad metric to use in isolation to judge potential station usage.

And of Northampton; 229,000, Milton Keynes, 184,000 *
But its Ok to add yet another stop in the Northampton - Birmingham service (9 at the moment). There's 2 stops Milton Keynes - Birmingham.
Right...

I would imagine that if Rugby Parkway did happen it and Long Buckby would be served by alternate trains, given that very few journeys would be made Long Buckby - outside Rugby. So no net journey time change.

EDIT: Wow, we've gone really off-topic from potential MML services.

 

[evergreenadam]

Point of order here but the route between Northampton and Peterborough via Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby and Oundle is operated by Stagecoach as their Stagecoach Gold X4 route which serves the main areas of population along the Nene Valley.

Granted the end to end journey has a average time of 3.5hrs but I would think that most traffic is intermediate traffic.

IF a railway service was to be considered then it would have to be faster then the already established route that Stagecoach operates.

That wouldn’t be difficult!

 

[cle]

The more pertinent point is, as I mentioned in a reply above, that Population is a very bad metric to use in isolation to judge potential station usage.

I cringe whenever the population stats come out on this board, as if all places and their people are equal in regards to railway demand and supply.