When was a train cancelled?

[Stuwhu]

Hi
I was recently (2nd September) booked on the 0957 Northern train from Stockport to Stoke on an advance ticket which was cancelled so I had to get the 1057. However my Delay Repay Claim has been refused as they claim the train was cancelled prior to 10pm the night before. However the train showed on National Rail Enquiries as cancelled, (as per attached) would this have happened if it wasn't on the days timetable?

Is there a way to see when it was cancelled? Real Time Trains doesnt go back that far

Thanks for any help

 

[hexagon789]

Hi
I was recently (2nd September) booked on the 0957 Northern train from Stockport to Stoke on an advance ticket which was cancelled so I had to get the 1057. However my Delay Repay Claim has been refused as they claim the train was cancelled prior to 10pm the night before. However the train showed on National Rail Enquiries as cancelled, (as per attached) would this have happened if it wasn't on the days timetable?

Is there a way to see when it was cancelled? Real Time Trains doesnt go back that far

Thanks for any help

On Time Trains might be what you're after.

It shows this for the 2nd September:

On Time Trains

Find out how often your train journey is on time, look up recent services eligible for delay repay claims and check your station rankings.

www.ontimetrains.co.uk

That the train was cancelled due to a short-term change to the timetable.

 

[Stuwhu]

Thank, Is there any way to see what time it was cancelled?

 

[87electric]

Does this help?

 

[Stuwhu]

Does this means it was changed at 0747 on the 2nd September?

 

[hexagon789]

Does this means it was changed at 0747 on the 2nd September?

View attachment 120969

No, just that it was activated in the system.

 

[Stuwhu]

Cheers, so it could have been cancelled at 10pm then only activated the next day?

 

[Watershed]

Hi
I was recently (2nd September) booked on the 0957 Northern train from Stockport to Stoke on an advance ticket which was cancelled so I had to get the 1057. However my Delay Repay Claim has been refused as they claim the train was cancelled prior to 10pm the night before. However the train showed on National Rail Enquiries as cancelled, (as per attached) would this have happened if it wasn't on the days timetable?

Is there a way to see when it was cancelled? Real Time Trains doesnt go back that far

Thanks for any help

Not in the public domain, unfortunately.

I would raise an appeal on the basis that there is no evidence that the train was cancelled by 10pm the night before and indeed it surely would not have appeared on NRE if that had been the case.

Furthermore, there's a general point about the enforceability of the purported Timetable of the Day exclusion (it has been discussed at length in previous threads; my view is that it is unenforceable - even more so in circumstances such as these where the passenger has no choice but to take the booked train).

And separate from this, as the delay was more than an hour (actual arrival 11:41 vs scheduled arrival of 10:40), you also have the right to (reduced) compensation under the PRO. The PRO also states that rights may not be reduced by conditions of carriage, so the purported Timetable of the Day exclusion is irrelevant in this context.

Obviously the problem with this claim is that it is likely to be for a low value, seeing as it's an Advance costing at most £5.50. So is it going to be worth your while pursuing this if you are denied again on appeal? That's a question only you can decide.

 

[Stuwhu]

Thanks @Watershed I've sent an appeal. Was hoping for a free Northern ticket. Ticket only cost £3.80 so as you say, cash compensation won't be a huge amount

 

[Watershed]

Thanks @Watershed I've sent an appeal. Was hoping for a free Northern ticket. Ticket only cost £3.80 so as you say, cash compensation won't be a huge amount

Ah, that's a bit harder because you are then reliant on what the Charter says.

 

[Birmingham]

Surely, if a train is ‘cancelled’ rather than ‘removed’, it is by definition in the timetable, because it hasn’t been removed from the timetable. So even if Northern cancel it before 10pm the day before, they’re still liable?

As an example, timetablehistory.com lists all services from Stockport on this day. While some services like Avanti services were removed, this Northern service was cancelled.

 

[v199629]

Two weeks ago, I travelled between Manchester Oxford Road and Westhoughton using Northern. The train I planned to travel on was cancelled the day before (before 2200) due to 'Short-notice changes' but on NRE it did show as cancelled on the day of travel. On realtimetrains the train doesn't show up unless you choose cancellation (Showing as VCN).

After the journey, I tried to claim delay repay (of the cancelled service) on Northern website but the journey cannot be found so no claim was made. The new NRcoT means that Northern can amend their service as like until 2200 the day before travel.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Thank, Is there any way to see what time it was cancelled?

The message from Darwin to cancel the train was issued at 03:39 on the 1st, it then appeared in the Darwin timetable for the 2nd as cancelled, which is why it was shown like that in the apps on the day. I agree with @Birmingham, it was in the timetable, just cancelled. If they wanted to remove it from the timetable they could have done that by deleting it instead.

 

[reb0118]

Does the fact that the ticket was an advance booked onto the cancelled service have any bearing on the case?

 

[XAM2175]

Does the fact that the ticket was an advance booked onto the cancelled service have any bearing on the case?

No, the Published Timetable of the Day rule applies regardless.

 

[furlong]

No, the Published Timetable of the Day rule applies regardless.

Except that the thing still does not exist as defined so how could it be enforceable? Note that they chose NOT to define it as "the results of a journey search made on nationalrail.co.uk at precisely 10pm the night before".
There's a suspicion that they intended to align it with data in an already-existing internal railway system but still haven't done the work to publish its content. They could for example generate a full national timetable pdf download each night and then to help you use it modify the journey planner to let you select a particular day's PTOD when searching.

 

[XAM2175]

Except that the thing still does not exist as defined so how could it be enforceable? Note that they chose NOT to define it as "the results of a journey search made on nationalrail.co.uk at precisely 10pm the night before".
There's a suspicion that they intended to align it with data in an already-existing internal railway system but still haven't done the work to publish its content.

I don't disagree in the slightest. You'll note though that I was responding to a question about whether or not the type of ticket made any difference.

 

[Kite159]

Except that the thing still does not exist as defined so how could it be enforceable? Note that they chose NOT to define it as "the results of a journey search made on nationalrail.co.uk at precisely 10pm the night before".
There's a suspicion that they intended to align it with data in an already-existing internal railway system but still haven't done the work to publish its content. They could for example generate a full national timetable pdf download each night and then to help you use it modify the journey planner to let you select a particular day's PTOD when searching.

It's just a fudge to allow the railways to attempt to override basic contract law to avoid paying out when they can't be bothered to run trains.

Just another example of the rail industry putting the passenger 'first'.

 

[fraser158]

It's all a bit pathetic and I don't see how it can be allowed.

 

[Watershed]

Does the fact that the ticket was an advance booked onto the cancelled service have any bearing on the case?

It makes the argument that compensation can be excluded under the PToD even weaker; the right to take the booked train is at the heart of the contract - and yet the PToD exclusion purports to allow TOCs to change that without actually informing you, let alone giving you advance notice, and without compensation.

There is absolutely no way that this would fly in Court. Unfortunately the problem is that these claims are generally of too low a value for it to be worthwhile to pursue it legally, and it's unlikely that such a claim would qualify for collective proceedings (what's commonly known as a "class action").

No, the Published Timetable of the Day rule applies regardless.

The text of the NRCoT doesn't distinguish between ticket types in its application of the purported PToD exclusion. That doesn't necessarily mean that the exclusion clause is lawful or binding.

 

[XAM2175]

The text of the NRCoT doesn't distinguish between ticket types in its application of the purported PToD exclusion. That doesn't necessarily mean that the exclusion clause is lawful or binding.

I wasn't offering an opinion on that!

 

[stew]

I actually have a delay repay claim with Northern for a train which was cancelled.
I lodged the claim and it was rejected as follows:

“We are sorry we have rejected your claim as the intended service was not timetabled to operate in advance of travel. Due to the impact's of COVID and the staffing challenges caused as result of the impact to our driver training program Northern like many other Train operators are operating amended timetables, Delay repay compensation is based on the advertised timetable at 10pm before the day of travel.

Always recommend that customers check for timetable amendments the day before travel. If you did not travel as a result of our service been removed you are entitled to a full refund from the ticket retailer.”

The service which I made the claim for was displayed at 10pm the previous night on NRE Journey Planner. And then appeared “cancelled” at some point during the day of travel.

I have appealed this rejection and will update when I hear further.

 

[HSP 2]

I'm in the same sort of position as stew above (post 22) in that my train was cancelled, I did check that it was running at about 18:30 the day before. It was.
When I went to the station in the morning to get the 05;49 it was cancelled. So I got the next train and with a few changes got to Scarbrough at approx. 13:45 Over 2 hours late.
I have spoken to a person about this and all I got was that the train was cancelled before 22;00 the day before, when I pointed out that I checked at about 18;30 was running and that I was going to bed at about 20;00 to get up at 04;00, it has been moved up to a higher grade I await with bated breath.

The use of the cancelled from the timetable the day before is only to show that it's not a short term cancellation.

I'm waiting to see what they have to say. When I do I'll let you all know.

 

[Aaron1]

I am in the same position with Northern, of course I have appealed

 

[HSP 2]

One part of the email that I received has got me thinking. "If you did not travel as a result of our service been removed you are entitled to a full refund from the ticket retailer."

How would this work with a Northern complimentary travel pass?

Going onto the published timetable surly the printed published timetable has to be the master? With any amendments being short term and having nothing to do with the 22;00 imposed cut off.

At the least this maybe worth taking to the rail ombudsman? What do you think?

 

[Haywain]

How would this work with a Northern complimentary travel pass?

You are entitled to refund of the full cost of the ticket. So, in such a case, nothing at all.

 

[SteveM70]

You are entitled to refund of the full cost of the ticket. So, in such a case, nothing at all.

Really?

Perhaps that might be legally the case, but surely morally the right thing to do is put the customer back in the same position as they were beforehand, ie issue another free ticket if they’d written the date on the original free ticket before discovering the cancellation?

 

[Haywain]

the right thing to do is put the customer back in the same position as they were beforehand, ie issue another free ticket if they’d written the date on the original free ticket before discovering the cancellation?

I agree, but it isn't a refund.

 

[SteveM70]

I agree, but it isn't a refund.

Ah right, I see where you’re coming from now. We agree

 

[AM9]

Has there been a late change to the PToD where a through journey failed, i.e. a feeder service removed causing a long distance train connection to be missed with the resulting delay over 2 hours? Or even more complex, two trains removed, where one removes the option to connect onto an earlier train causing maybe a three-sector journey to completely collapse?