When was a train cancelled?

[HSP 2]

Last night after getting in from the model railway club I decided to have a look on RTT for all day today from Barrow, I had the CAN button in (or in use). This was at about 22:20 (Northern cut off time 22:00) no cancelations showing.

I then had a look at the same times this morning and the following trains are shown as cancelled the 06:49 Barrow to Manchester Airport and the 09:27 return from Manchester Airport arrive Barrow 12:01. Both of them are shown as planned cancelation by the operator.

Norther say that you should check the night before travel at 22:00 to check that your train is running, Now the big question with who? Or what website?

 

[AM9]

Last night after getting in from the model railway club I decided to have a look on RTT for all day today from Barrow, I had the CAN button in (or in use). This was at about 22:20 (Northern cut off time 22:00) no cancelations showing.

I then had a look at the same times this morning and the following trains are shown as cancelled the 06:49 Barrow to Manchester Airport and the 09:27 return from Manchester Airport arrive Barrow 12:01. Both of them are shown as planned cancelation by the operator.

Norther say that you should check the night before travel at 22:00 to check that your train is running, Now the big question with who? Or what website?

National Rail Enquiries seems to be the most likely place. If it won't give an itinerary using the train in question then it probably won't e running.

 

[Magdalen Road]

This really isn't feasible as ASP has found - I also get an early train (0515ish) so go to bed at 2030 because I'm getting up about about 0415. How on earth am I meant to check a timetable at 2201. And even then if it hasn't been published by 2220 then how can TOCs deny compensation based on TToD cancellation when it's not published at a reasonable time?

 

[Watershed]

This really isn't feasible as ASP has found - I also get an early train (0515ish) so go to bed at 2030 because I'm getting up about about 0415. How on earth am I meant to check a timetable at 2201. And even then if it hasn't been published by 2220 then how can TOCs deny compensation based on TToD cancellation when it's not published at a reasonable time?

The PToD concept is defined by the NRCoT as whatever NRE shows at 22:00, so what other sites do or don't show doesn't come into that.

Of course the PToD exclusion is just a complete non-starter from so many angles, as you say. In theory it means that even a 00:01 departure could be removed from the timetable 2 hours ahead of time and that wouldn't count as a cancellation.

It's a pathetic attempt at trying to fiddle the statistics and swindle passengers out of the delay compensation they're rightly entitled to, as a result of the abysmal reliability seen across many parts of the industry at the moment.

 

[stew]

The PToD concept is defined by the NRCoT as whatever NRE shows at 22:00, so what other sites do or don't show doesn't come into that.

Of course the PToD exclusion is just a complete non-starter from so many angles, as you say. In theory it means that even a 00:01 departure could be removed from the timetable 2 hours ahead of time and that wouldn't count as a cancellation.

It's a pathetic attempt at trying to fiddle the statistics and swindle passengers out of the delay compensation they're rightly entitled to, as a result of the abysmal reliability seen across many parts of the industry at the moment.

To many on this site, delay repay /comp is important, but is it a really large concern for the wider public?

I am still waiting a response from Northern for my appeal for a rejected DR claim where the train was cancelled (according to journey planners) at some during the day of travel

 

[Watershed]

To many on this site, delay repay /comp is important, but is it a really large concern for the wider public?

I am still waiting a response from Northern for my appeal for a rejected DR claim where the train was cancelled (according to journey planners) at some during the day of travel

The exact level of compensation is unlikely to be a deciding factor for the public, but when they are inconvenienced I would say the majority do expect, at the very least, an apology and some measure of compensation.

Refusing Delay Repay claims based on the make-believe idea that "the timetable is whatever we can muster up the night before" is the antithesis of that. Frankly, the industry would be better off not offering delay compensation at all (not that it has a choice in the matter!), than adding insult to injury in such a manner.

 

[AM9]

The exact level of compensation is unlikely to be a deciding factor for the public, but when they are inconvenienced I would say the majority do expect, at the very least, an apology and some measure of compensation.

Refusing Delay Repay claims based on the make-believe idea that "the timetable is whatever we can muster up the night before" is the antithesis of that. Frankly, the industry would be better off not offering delay compensation at all (not that it has a choice in the matter!), than adding insult to injury in such a manner.

I would say that if DR is weakened to the point where the TOC can apply arbitrary reasons for cancellations being OK, thereby avoiding a cost penalty, then there is no incentive to bother much at all with any reasonable semblance of a service. Despite DR being a trivial attempt to pacify passengers suffering, it does cost a TOC so there is some incentive to reduce claims.

 

[Haywain]

To many on this site, delay repay /comp is important, but is it a really large concern for the wider public?

Delay Repay may not be a major factor for the wider public but the reliability of the service definitely is and arbitrary 'planned' cancellations really do nothing to help the reputation of our railway. To then go on a deny the service existed in the way that PTotD does is abysmal and trashes goodwill. What's worse is that it appears to be being used without any accountability or any ability to track when changes have actually been made or can be found. It is, frankly, a disgrace.

 

[ashkeba]

Delay Repay may not be a major factor for the wider public but the reliability of the service definitely is and arbitrary 'planned' cancellations really do nothing to help the reputation of our railway. To then go on a deny the service existed in the way that PTotD does is abysmal and trashes goodwill. What's worse is that it appears to be being used without any accountability or any ability to track when changes have actually been made or can be found. It is, frankly, a disgrace.

Is requiring passengers to check websites when they need to be asleep (so they can get up for an early train) an unfair term in a consumer contract that will be dead if it ever reaches court?

 

[Watershed]

Is requiring passengers to check websites when they need to be asleep (so they can get up for an early train) an unfair term in a consumer contract that will be dead if it ever reaches court?

That is likely to be one of many factors why the PToD exclusion could be considered an unfair term in a consumer contract. Let alone the many ambiguities, the lack of independent verifiability of when a service was "removed" from the timetable, the fact that passengers aren't proactively notified and so forth, which are issues on a basic contractual level.

 

[Kite159]

Or when a passenger arrives at a station to see the train they had planned to catch showing up as cancelled on the screens, how will they know if that service was cancelled before 10pm the night before (so they can't claim for being delayed) or cancelled on the day (which can be claimed for)?

 

[stew]

Interesting to see Northern’s DR stats at the bottom of this page

Northern Rail

northernrailway.force.com

 

[Magdalen Road]

Or when a passenger arrives at a station to see the train they had planned to catch showing up as cancelled on the screens, how will they know if that service was cancelled before 10pm the night before (so they can't claim for being delayed) or cancelled on the day (which can be claimed for)?

They find out when their claim is denied on basis of that's what we're telling you!

Season ticket holders are being particularly poorly treated. I need to chase my MP for what's happened, she was going to write to GTR.

 

[IanXC]

Delay Repay may not be a major factor for the wider public but the reliability of the service definitely is and arbitrary 'planned' cancellations really do nothing to help the reputation of our railway. To then go on a deny the service existed in the way that PTotD does is abysmal and trashes goodwill. What's worse is that it appears to be being used without any accountability or any ability to track when changes have actually been made or can be found. It is, frankly, a disgrace.

Couldn't agree more.

I for one am surprised that no one has created website which takes a 2201 snapshot of the Darwin feed each day.

There is perhaps some measure of resolution to be found at a minimum of 12 hours prior to departure - that would at least resolve the 'going to sleep ready for departure' problem.

 

[Stuwhu]

Well they rejected my appeal. Annoying thing is, when I asked about the cancelled train at the time on twitter, Northern told me to get a later train and to apply for delay repay.