Where could the ex-Heathrow Connect class 360/2s be used? Or will they be scrapped?

[Energy]

Ignoring ROSCO issues, SWR seems a likely place to me to supplement the 450 fleet as they have been having difficulties with their 442s (not enough 360/2s though but it would help). 350/2s could also go to SWR but these won't be going off lease for a couple years and can he in addition to the 360/2s.

 

[DorkingMain]

Given the amount of work that's been put into the 442s (retractioning, interior refurbishments etc.) I doubt there is a will to abandon the project now in favour of modifying yet more stock.

Lack of gangways on the 360/2s also means they wouldn't be massively suitable for SWR's long distance work. Ascot - Aldershot / Guildford - Farnham wouldn't be a terrible prospect, though they'd need to be configured with ASDO if they are not already - Camberley, Frimley, Ash etc. are only 4 car platforms.

One prospect I'm not sure has been discussed here is the 350/2s or 360/2s going to Southern. Obviously GTR are still running quite large numbers of ancient ex-BR trains (313s / 455s) - the Desiros would be ideal for middle-distance Southern work, bumping 377s onto metro / South Coastway routes. 350/2s were also under consideration for battery operation, which would be potentially useful on Ore - Ashford / Oxted - Uckfield.

 

[JonathanH]

One prospect I'm not sure has been discussed here is the 350/2s or 360/2s going to Southern.

I think it is accepted that 360/2s are to be exported but no announcement has been made to confirm that. We just need to wait for them to be transported. There is no particular need to speculate about their future.

350/2s to Southern was mentioned in this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-use-for-class-350-2s.197642/page-4#post-4524017 - and discounted as not being a plausible prospect.

 

[OTRail]

Even though the units are stored, I still see them shunting around OOC on occasions, so there is definitely a plan for them, otherwise they would’ve been put in to long-term store/scrap and never seen the light of day again. I guess it’s just a case of “wait and see” when it comes to the future of these units.

I think it is accepted that 360/2s are to be exported but no announcement has been made to confirm that. We just need to wait for them to be transported. There is no particular need to speculate about their future.

350/2s to Southern was mentioned in this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-use-for-class-350-2s.197642/page-4#post-4524017 - and discounted as not being a plausible prospect.

My personal view is the 350/2s will be used to replace older EMUs elsewhere on the network (i.e. Scotrail 318s/320s).

 

[Domh245]

My personal view is the 350/2s will be used to replace older EMUs elsewhere on the network (i.e. Scotrail 318s/320s).

As discussed elsewhere, that particular cascade won't happen. There's not enough 350s to replace all of those units, they can't work in multiple with the units that would have to stay behind, and are 4x20m when the glasgow suburban network is set up around 3x20m

 

[Bigman]

Could they ever be considered as a replacement for the 333's in West Yorkshire (if the 333's go the same way as the 332's)?

 

[D365]

Could they ever be considered as a replacement for the 333's in West Yorkshire (if the 333's go the same way as the 332's)?

Are you referring to the Class 350/2s, or the 360/2s?

 

[DB]

Could they ever be considered as a replacement for the 333's in West Yorkshire (if the 333's go the same way as the 332's)?

Why? They aren't that much newer than the 333s.

 

[A0]

I suggested the 350/2s to Scotrail to replace the 318, 320 and 322s.

Just looking at the number of carriages Scotrail's 318+320+322 = 165 carriages.

The 360 + 350/2s = 173 carriages.

Would it be possible to re-form the 360s into 6 car units, by reducing some of the 350/2s ? As those Scotrail diagrams seem to need 3/6 car units, could it be covered this way ?

Would allow the withdrawl of old units.

 

[OTRail]

I suggested the 350/2s to Scotrail to replace the 318, 320 and 322s.

Just looking at the number of carriages Scotrail's 318+320+322 = 165 carriages.

The 360 + 350/2s = 173 carriages.

Would it be possible to re-form the 360s into 6 car units, by reducing some of the 350/2s ? As those Scotrail diagrams seem to need 3/6 car units, could it be covered this way ?

Would allow the withdrawl of old units.

The 322s haven’t operated on SR services for almost 10 years - after a brief stint with Northern, all are now with Greater Anglia operating GEML stopping services.

There are a total of 55 318s and 320s, whereas there are only 37 350s, although the capacity increase provided by the extra carriage on the 350/2s could offset this.

Anyways this is getting off topic now - the 360/2s I believe are most likely to be exported, but if they were to stay in the UK they would go to EMR.

 

[43096]

There are a total of 55 318s and 320s, whereas there are only 37 350s, although the capacity increase provided by the extra carriage on the 350/2s could offset this.

The 318/320 fleet is 165 vehicles. The 350/2 fleet is 148 vehicles. Furthermore, the lines the 318/320 fleet operate are largely constrained to 6 x 20m vehicles. 4-car units are not a good fit.

Anyways this is getting off topic now - the 360/2s I believe are most likely to be exported, but if they were to stay in the UK they would go to EMR.

Why would they go to EMR?

 

[OTRail]

The 318/320 fleet is 165 vehicles. The 350/2 fleet is 148 vehicles. Furthermore, the lines the 318/320 fleet operate are largely constrained to 6 x 20m vehicles. 4-car units are not a good fit.


Why would they go to EMR?

Speculation but not true - if the Electrics services was expanded would provide a homogenous fleet. But like I said above I highly doubt they’re staying in the UK

 

[Energy]

Speculation but not true - if the Electrics services was expanded would provide a homogenous fleet. But like I said above I highly doubt they’re staying in the UK

How would it be expanded? There isn't any more electrification...

 

[OTRail]

How would it be expanded? There isn't any more electrification...

It’s a hypothetical... not to mention it is on the cards but not in the immediate future...

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I remind posters that this thread is for the discussion of possible uses for the ex Heathrow Connect 360/2s.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to create a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

 

[D365]

Don't forget that the 360/2s are a rather unique Desiro subfleet, with at least a few of the units having been converted from the Class 350/0 prototypes. This means they'll have some unique quirks compared to the "production" 350 or 450 fleets, and therefore may not be especially desirable to TOCs. Especially with the 350/2s soon to be available.

 

[JN114]

As with their older, Heathrow-owned cousins; the problem will essentially be ownership.

While the 360/2s are considerably more marketable than the 332s were; that ownership hurdle still has to be cleared.

I’ll ask the same question therefore I asked of speculators on the 332s - why is any ROSCO going to fork out £x million buying these units off Heathrow Airport; when they are or soon will be paying to store much greater numbers of similarly capable units already?

There have been rumours that there is an overseas operator that is interested in acquiring them - I speculated on one that was in the market and for whom they’d be a good fit, and at least one element of the railway press reported very similar rumours - But there’s still no announcement yet. The pandemic has really gripped the world over the (well, our) Winter months; so it’s entirely feasible that that deal, if it was as “done” as the rumours suggested, could well have fallen through.

The likelihood of them working in the UK again though I’d judge as extremely low. There’s too much good stuff already available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thailand was the one I heard mentioned, as they are the other country that operate what are to all intents and purposes exactly the same unit bar a larger aircon unit on the roof.

 

[JN114]

Thailand was the one I heard mentioned, as they are the other country that operate what are to all intents and purposes exactly the same unit bar a larger aircon unit on the roof.

Johannesburg was what I speculated on, and was also reported as such in the railway press - they’ve been in the market for UK-gauge stock to bolster their existing fleet for a while now.

While the 360/2s are very similar to the Thai units, I don’t think they’re after any more at present?

 

[43096]

While the 360/2s are very similar to the Thai units, I don’t think they’re after any more at present?

At one point the Thai operators were looking for more stock but the tenders for it subsequently lapsed. Certainly the fit between the two fleets is uncannily good: the Thai fleet is 4 x 4-car and 5 x 3-car. Adding the 360/2s in would allow one trailer to go to each of the 3-car sets, giving a uniform fleet of 14 x 4-car. Far too neat and you can see how rumours start!

 

[Energy]

At one point the Thai operators were looking for more stock but the tenders for it subsequently lapsed. Certainly the fit between the two fleets is uncannily good: the Thai fleet is 4 x 4-car and 5 x 3-car. Adding the 360/2s in would allow one trailer to go to each of the 3-car sets, giving a uniform fleet of 14 x 4-car. Far too neat and you can see how rumours start!

That and it gives a source of spare parts which the Thai ones are apparently in need of.

 

[MarkyT]

Johannesburg was what I speculated on, and was also reported as such in the railway press - they’ve been in the market for UK-gauge stock to bolster their existing fleet for a while now.

While the 360/2s are very similar to the Thai units, I don’t think they’re after any more at present?

The Gautrain, an 80km 25kV standard gauge express network in Gauteng province with a mainline between the large cities of Johannesburg and Pretoria and an airport branch presumably, which has been seeking additional rolling stock. All their existing trains are Bombardier Electrostars though, with slightly pointy cab ends bolted on. Seems odd to add a small used fleet from a different manufacturer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Gautrain, an 80km 25kV standard gauge express network in Gauteng province with a mainline between the large cities of Johannesburg and Pretoria and an airport branch presumably, which has been seeking additional rolling stock. All their existing trains are Bombardier Electrostars though, with slightly pointy cab ends bolted on. Seems odd to add a small used fleet from a different manufacturer.

The ex-Stansted Express Electrostars seem more likely for this purpose.

 

[OTRail]

The ex-Stansted Express Electrostars seem more likely for this purpose.

I can see them going to Great Northern to replace the 365s and work alongside the 387s

 

[D365]

I can see them going to Great Northern to replace the 365s and work alongside the 387s

That would be a lot of upheaval for not a lot of benefit, but we will see...

 

[greatvoyager]

The ex-Stansted Express Electrostars seem more likely for this purpose.

Absolutely, much more favourable than a micro fleet.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just spotted a path from Old Oak Common EMU depot to Bicester MOD, of all places. Not running yet today, but also in the system for tomorrow. Could it be a storage move? Are the 360/2 even still at the HEX depot?

Realtime Trains - 509S 1023 Old Oak Common Emu Depot to Bicester Mod Gbrf

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

But in any case, are there any new rumours about the 360/2?

 

[OTRail]

Just spotted a path from Old Oak Common EMU depot to Bicester MOD, of all places. Not running yet today, but also in the system for tomorrow. Could it be a storage move? Are the 360/2 even still at the HEX depot?

Realtime Trains - 509S 1023 Old Oak Common Emu Depot to Bicester Mod Gbrf

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

But in any case, are there any new rumours about the 360/2?

Nothing new as of yet - all are at OOC sidings at the moment and occasionally do shunts around the fiddle yard - I can imagine it will be for further storage seeing as OOC HEX is to be closed soon for the HS2.

 

[3973EXL]

360s off to MoD Bicester

11/02 204/205
Realtime Trains - 509S 1023 Old Oak Common Emu Depot to Bicester Mod Gbrf
12/02
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1023 Old Oak Common Emu Depot to Bicester Mod Gbrf

 

[Class360/1]

give them to scotrai? they have an elderly EMU fleet