Where did it all go wrong for The Liberal Democrats ?

[317 forever]

Of course....Son of Blair is out there somewhere

Yes, he had a son in 2000, and it is likely to take so long for us to get another Labour government that the next Labour PM is likely to have been born ca 2000 anyway.

As a former a Lib-Dem voter, they were always really good in the local community where I live. And to be fair voting for the Liberals was also a great way to keep Labour out of power in our area, who seemed to take our tax money and blow it all on the city centre, whilst shutting down our local amenities and services (a process that had been ongoing since the 1974 restructure, regardless of the party in government).

But then came Brexit and the Liberals went all in on trying to overturn the referendum result. As a solid Leave voter, I couldn't accept that. So I have never voted Lib-Dem since and won't ever again.

With the part exception of Westmoreland & Lonsdale, the LibDems were finally wiped out from Leave areas in 2019.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, he had a son in 2000, and it is likely to take so long for us to get another Labour government that the next Labour PM is likely to have been born ca 2000 anyway.


With the part exception of Westmoreland & Lonsdale, the LibDems were finally wiped out from Leave areas in 2019.

On the other hand, the Cornwall Council seat that includes the important fishing port of Newlyn was won by the Lib Dems for the first time last month, perhaps reflecting the disastrous fishing 'deal' that Johnson's government negotiated (I use the word loosely) with the E.U and the contempt felt by anyone with half a brain for localish MP and Agriculture/Fisheries Minister George ''Useless''Eustice.
.

 

[Horizon22]

As a former a Lib-Dem voter, they were always really good in the local community where I live. And to be fair voting for the Liberals was also a great way to keep Labour out of power in our area, who seemed to take our tax money and blow it all on the city centre, whilst shutting down our local amenities and services (a process that had been ongoing since the 1974 restructure, regardless of the party in government).

But then came Brexit and the Liberals went all in on trying to overturn the referendum result. As a solid Leave voter, I couldn't accept that. So I have never voted Lib-Dem since and won't ever again.

The first bit is part of the problem. Lib Dems are generally very good community champions and have hard-working local activists that genuinely care. They're good at local democracy because Labour seem to be a bit ruthless and centralised and Conservatives have the tendency to be complacent and not care. However, you can't stand on a platform of "being a community champion" at a General Election as the campaign will be driven by the bigger issues.

The "Revoke" stance was highly debated internally and many thought it as suicide for wider election prospects even though it carved out a niche; places that did vote 50%+ leave and have voted Lib Dem in the past (Cornwall for instance) were much less likely to do so, whilst it shunned a People's Vote movement that was already gaining momentum and had indeed had Lib Dems at the core of it from the beginning.

When Brexit becomes less of an issue (who knows when that will be?!) things might change as 'tuition fees' was over 10 years ago now and the majority of voters don't think that far back (although the majority of voters also don't change their votes!)

 

[MattRat]

I should have found this sooner. While people mainly blame what happened in the coalition, I think for the majority, it's been Brexit. The Conservatives offered a referendum on the matter, which won them the election, and then, they were the only major party who kept backing Brexit after the result, which has kept the, in power to this day. You might say it's in the past, but all English parties, where Brexit saw the most support, have lived and died depending whether they are pro or anti Europe, and only in pro Europe areas like Scotland and Wales have pro Europe parties had success.

I think if they stopped banging on about Europe all the time, they might actually regain some seats....

 

[Butts]

I should have found this sooner. While people mainly blame what happened in the coalition, I think for the majority, it's been Brexit. The Conservatives offered a referendum on the matter, which won them the election, and then, they were the only major party who kept backing Brexit after the result, which has kept the, in power to this day. You might say it's in the past, but all English parties, where Brexit saw the most support, have lived and died depending whether they are pro or anti Europe, and only in pro Europe areas like Scotland and Wales have pro Europe parties had success.

I think if they stopped banging on about Europe all the time, they might actually regain some seats....

Wales pro-Europe ?

They along with England voted to leave.

Checkout how the pro-europe LD's did there - 1 List Seat (just) in the Senedd their grand total and no Westminster MP's.

 

[507021]

I should have found this sooner. While people mainly blame what happened in the coalition, I think for the majority, it's been Brexit.

I think the complete collapse in support for the Lib Dems in the 2015 election suggests otherwise.

I think if they stopped banging on about Europe all the time

Why should they? Pan-Europeanism is one of the party's core ideologies, and probably the main reason they still have some support.

 

[MattRat]

I think the complete collapse in support for the Lib Dems in the 2015 election suggests otherwise.

Why should they? Pan-Europeanism is one of the party's core ideologies, and probably the main reason they still have some support.

The Conservatives won in 2015, as the only party offering a referendum. Since they were also part of the coalition, if it was just voting on anti-coalition sentiment, Labour would have won instead.

Core ideals don't win elections, ideas that voters want does. Labour has the same problem right now. If either party ever wants to actually win (which logically should be their goal), they need to change with the times.

 

[Irascible]

The tories won in 2015 because LD voters were disgusted enough to not vote LD, and Labour were no opposition. EU ref wasn't anything anyone generally took seriously until there was a campaign. Populism is a short term move that'll get you in and out of power rather fast - hey Clegg/new Labour, where are you now? the way in is to have a vision of the future people can get behind ,by making sure you are seen to be trying to make it happen you get to stay. Not u-turn every five minutes. Decades of undereducation has all but insured we're doomed to perpetual short term useless governance - eventually it'll result in brains & taxable entities draining away - lived through that already, not looking forward to the rerun. Quite a number of sci/tech folk I've worked with are mid process already, just got a bit stuck via covid. They've just lost faith in *all* our parties.

Clegg screwed the LDs, but really the formation of the Labour party was their doom. Increasing polarisation like we see won't help.

 

[Horizon22]

The Conservatives won in 2015, as the only party offering a referendum. Since they were also part of the coalition, if it was just voting on anti-coalition sentiment, Labour would have won instead.

Core ideals don't win elections, ideas that voters want does. Labour has the same problem right now. If either party ever wants to actually win (which logically should be their goal), they need to change with the times.

You also don't sell your soul just to win an election. Yes compromise and nuance, but there's no way the Lib Dems are ever going to lose their internationalist and European outlook. And many of their voters have also felt this way. A significant proportion of the 48% of Remain voters will look to someone who keeps these ideals. Just because Brexit is "done", there's still years of outcomes to talk about and future relationships to be worked out which - in my view - the Conservatives are making a total hash out of so far.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not in any way a core Lib Dem voter, but it does surprise me that the party isn't doing better. I have mixed views on some of their other policies, but they've always maintained a core of social-democraticky policies that I've always found attractive.

I also didn't get the hoo-haa over Tim Farron's beliefs. There are all sorts of people in politics with religious beliefs that I wouldn't agree with, who don't let it get in the way of the day job.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Absolutely. The Lib Dems basically propped up one of the most ideologically nasty Tory governments we've ever seen.


It's not a "Christian value" to be a homophobe.

Ironically that nasty Tory government legalised same sex marriage and Cameron said it was "one of the highlights of his career" to do so.

 

[deltic]

Ironically that nasty Tory government legalised same sex marriage and Cameron said it was "one of the highlights of his career" to do so.

Legislation that was orginated and taken through Parliament by a Lib Dem minister Lynne Featherstone! It was not mentioned in the Conservative manifesto

 

[Domh245]

Legislation that was orginated and taken through Parliament by a Lib Dem minister Lynne Featherstone! It was not mentioned in the Conservative manifesto

And let's not forget that 127 of the Conservative MPs voted against it, whilst only 118 voted for it..

 

[Typhoon]

I'm not in any way a core Lib Dem voter, but it does surprise me that the party isn't doing better.

Uninspiring leadership?

If Labour thinks its got problems with Starmer ...

Also, whoever made the decision to give the likes of Cable and Davey a knighthood needs to be congratulated by Conservative Central Office. Leaders of two main opposition parties are Knights of the Realm while 'BoJo' and 'Dave' remain plain Mr. - Men of the People. The 3 LibDem leaders that voters will remember are all knights! Happy coincidence - no more than when our Prime Minister (when Foreign Secretary) 'accidentally' referred to his Labour opposite number as Lady Nugee.

And let's not forget that 127 of the Conservative MPs voted against it, whilst only 118 voted for it..

I had forgotten (thank you for the reminder); it comes across as a great reforming measure by 'Dave' when it only got through because of his LibDem allies and Labour. I wonder if that is in the book?

 

[507021]

Wales pro-Europe ?

They along with England voted to leave.

Checkout how the pro-europe LD's did there - 1 List Seat (just) in the Senedd their grand total and no Westminster MP's.

Wales is not the staunch Brexit supporting nation you seem to think it is.

Research has proven the scales were tipped by areas which have predominantly English-born populations, which returned a higher amount of Leave votes than those which have predominantly Welsh populations.

Core ideals don't win elections, ideas that voters want does. Labour has the same problem right now. If either party ever wants to actually win (which logically should be their goal), they need to change with the times.

Core ideologies are fundamental to a party's existence.

Those who oppose Brexit need and have a right to political representation. The Liberal Democrats aren't going to gain enough support to win more seats and challenge the status quo by abandoning their pan European ideology, are they?

 

[yorksrob]

Uninspiring leadership?

If Labour thinks its got problems with Starmer ...

Also, whoever made the decision to give the likes of Cable and Davey a knighthood needs to be congratulated by Conservative Central Office. Leaders of two main opposition parties are Knights of the Realm while 'BoJo' and 'Dave' remain plain Mr. - Men of the People. The 3 LibDem leaders that voters will remember are all knights! Happy coincidence - no more than when our Prime Minister (when Foreign Secretary) 'accidentally' referred to his Labour opposite number as Lady Nugee.



I had forgotten (thank you for the reminder); it comes across as a great reforming measure by 'Dave' when it only got through because of his LibDem allies and Labour. I wonder if that is in the book?

He earned brownie points with me when he backed the replacement trains on the Windermere line. Very good to have someone in parliament supporting the regional railway so practically..

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Those who oppose Brexit need and have a right to political representation. The Liberal Democrats aren't going to gain enough support to win more seats and challenge the status quo by abandoning their pan European ideology, are they?

Brexit is done and completed. It's something that happened in the past. I'm not sure it makes much sense for a party to make one of its ideologies opposition to something that happened in the past, and which is therefore now beyond anyone's ability to change.

Besides, since when was pan-Europeanism a liberal ideology? I thought liberalism was supposed to be about supporting an open society, valuing human freedoms and the ability of people to determine their own lives. That seems largely unrelated to whether or not you support pan-Europeanism (in fact you could argue that, to the extent that liberalism normally values decentralisation of power to local communities as far as possible, pan-Europeanism - if it means some centralised authority covering all of Europe - is somewhat in conflict with liberal values).

 

[507021]

Brexit is done and completed. It's something that happened in the past. I'm not sure it makes much sense for a party to make one of its ideologies opposition to something that happened in the past, and which is therefore now beyond anyone's ability to change.

Besides, since when was pan-Europeanism a liberal ideology? I thought liberalism was supposed to be about supporting an open society, valuing human freedoms and the ability of people to determine their own lives. That seems largely unrelated to whether or not you support pan-Europeanism (in fact you could argue that, to the extent that liberalism normally values decentralisation of power to local communities as far as possible, pan-Europeanism - if it means some centralised authority covering all of Europe - is somewhat in conflict with liberal values).

It doesn't really, but people who oppose Brexit and favour rejoining the EU still need and deserve political representation. Voters in that category make up the core of what support the party has left. Abandon those and Lib Dems may as well shut up shop.

 

[MikeWh]

Brexit is done and completed.

Do me a favour!

The technical "leave the EU" is done. The process of moving forward is nowhere near complete. The pandemic has masked a lot of problems.

 

[Butts]

Do me a favour!

The technical "leave the EU" is done. The process of moving forward is nowhere near complete. The pandemic has masked a lot of problems.

Very witty

 

[317 forever]

Wales is not the staunch Brexit supporting nation you seem to think it is.

Research has proven the scales were tipped by areas which have predominantly English-born populations, which returned a higher amount of Leave votes than those which have predominantly Welsh populations.



Core ideologies are fundamental to a party's existence.

Those who oppose Brexit need and have a right to political representation. The Liberal Democrats aren't going to gain enough support to win more seats and challenge the status quo by abandoning their pan European ideology, are they?

Mind you, the Valleys voted strongly Leave but have few English residents there.

 

[tbtc]

The "Revoke" stance was highly debated internally and many thought it as suicide for wider election prospects even though it carved out a niche; places that did vote 50%+ leave and have voted Lib Dem in the past (Cornwall for instance) were much less likely to do so

Worth mentioning that Sunderland (which seems to be the "poster boy" for leave voting areas, given the media's love of a narrative of "left behind" / "white working class" etc) went from one LibDem councillor to five LibDem councillors at the election last month - so the LibDems can appeal to voters in places that voted 50% "leave"

A significant proportion of the 48% of Remain voters will look to someone who keeps these ideals

Agreed

If "Leave" had won 48.1% in 2016 then I don't think that UKIP would have disbanded and accepted that the 51.8% had a clear mandate to implement whatever form of "remain" they wanted (even if that mean a "hard remain" with Shengen/ Euro membership/ federalism) - the SNP didn't give up on leaving the UK after winning 44.7% of the independence referendum in 2014 - yet some people like to pretend that the LibDems should have given up on wanting EU membership because only 48.1% of people wanted to remain

I also didn't get the hoo-haa over Tim Farron's beliefs. There are all sorts of people in politics with religious beliefs that I wouldn't agree with, who don't let it get in the way of the day job.

Yeah, it does feel over-egged to me - fair enough to judge Farron on his voting history but his views seemed fairly in line with most mainstream religions (not "fire and brimstone", more "unease" at some things) - I get that people maybe have different standards when it comes to the LibDems but I think it's a little unfair to focus so much on him when the likes of Rees Mogg get a pass for being wacky eccentrics (in terms of his religious views)

 

[MattRat]

The technical "leave the EU" is done. The process of moving forward is nowhere near complete. The pandemic has masked a lot of problems.

Either way, you shouldn't talk about the EU as if we were still in it. Plus the other problems you hint at. I'd rather hear policies about getting people employed, or helping the homeless, not Europe this and Europe that. I feel like the Lib Dems are doing the latter.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah, it does feel over-egged to me - fair enough to judge Farron on his voting history but his views seemed fairly in line with most mainstream religions (not "fire and brimstone", more "unease" at some things) - I get that people maybe have different standards when it comes to the LibDems but I think it's a little unfair to focus so much on him when the likes of Rees Mogg get a pass for being wacky eccentrics (in terms of his religious views)

Thing is, we expect that kind of crackpottery from the more fringe Tories like JR-M, less-so from Liberals. In Farron's case, the way he said one thing as leader but then walked it back after he stepped down*, made me wonder what other things he'd said out of political expediency rather than a genuinely held belief.

*= the view expressed later might well be more theologically sound, but I gather that even most religious lay-people aren't overly fussed about the intricacies of theology.

 

[deltic]

Thing is, we expect that kind of crackpottery from the more fringe Tories like JR-M, less-so from Liberals. In Farron's case, the way he said one thing as leader but then walked it back after he stepped down*, made me wonder what other things he'd said out of political expediency rather than a genuinely held belief.

*= the view expressed later might well be more theologically sound, but I gather that even most religious lay-people aren't overly fussed about the intricacies of theology.

There was a lot of pressure put on Farron to state things he didnt believe in for politcal reasons. I remember an odd TV clip where he did a short interview to say he believed in a women's right to choose an abortion which he had obviously been pressured to make. I was disappointed that he didnt say that being a Liberal means being tolerant of other people's believes and opinions.

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, it does feel over-egged to me - fair enough to judge Farron on his voting history but his views seemed fairly in line with most mainstream religions (not "fire and brimstone", more "unease" at some things) - I get that people maybe have different standards when it comes to the LibDems but I think it's a little unfair to focus so much on him when the likes of Rees Mogg get a pass for being wacky eccentrics (in terms of his religious views)

Given what we know now about the likes of Cambridge Analytica and others, including very carefully managed social media manipulation with bots (very obvious to most, but not to others), I wonder how much of the hatred against the likes of Tim Farron and also Jeremy Corbyn (and others) was/is carefully controlled to discredit and destroy credibility.

Don't get me wrong, Corbyn was awful and I'd argue unelectable, but in a relatively short space of time anyone who supported Labour was quickly jumped on and accused of supporting anti-semitism. If someone is told that, they'll more than likely retreat very quickly.

I think also of the US where they carefully controlled the narrative to encourage minorities not to vote by making it appear that everyone was out to get them. Leave people so confused and/or angry they won't vote for anyone - and not realise that they were very carefully targeted by name/address/district.

 

[birchesgreen]

There was a lot of pressure put on Farron to state things he didnt believe in for politcal reasons. I remember an odd TV clip where he did a short interview to say he believed in a women's right to choose an abortion which he had obviously been pressured to make. I was disappointed that he didnt say that being a Liberal means being tolerant of other people's believes and opinions.

Problem with that is a lot of liberals believe in being tolerant of other people's beliefs and opinions as long as it is beliefs and opinions they agree with.

 

[507021]

Mind you, the Valleys voted strongly Leave but have few English residents there.

That's very true, I have a feeling the Valleys was down to disillusioned Labour voters supporting UKIP instead.

 

[deltic]

A stunning by-election win - as one of our MPs said we are the cockroaches of politics you can never fully kill us off

The Blue wall has increasing cracks in it - but if anyone can ride two horses facing in completely different directions its Johnson

 

[Butts]

A stunning by-election win - as one of our MPs said we are the cockroaches of politics you can never fully kill us off

The Blue wall has increasing cracks in it - but if anyone can ride two horses facing in completely different directions its Johnson

Take my hat off to you on this one - sounds like a big protest vote judging by the change around