Where next for TfW & EMR 15x units, TfW 175s and 769s, and the non-PRM compliant 153s...?

[anamyd]

Apologies if there's already a thread, but I don't believe there is.

From 2022-23, 109 Transport for Wales units (36 150s, 13 153s, 24 158s, 27 175s and 9 769s, all of which will be PRM compliant and also improved in other ways) are due to go off-lease after being replaced by brand new CAF and Stadler units.

I also understand that East Midlands Railway currently has 17 153s (though non-PRM compliant), 24 156s and 26 158s but by then will instead have 40 170s (ex-West Midlands Railway, ScotRail and Southern) and 21 360s (ex-Greater Anglia).

This will mean that becoming available will be:

36 PRM compliant 150s
13 PRM compliant 153s
24 156s (I'm assuming all are PRM compliant)
50 158s (I'm assuming all are PRM compliant)
27 175s
9 769s (if they're all in service by then )

159 useable units! Where do people reckon these will go...?

Then there's the national fleet of 52 non-PRM compliant 153s (70 - 18 TfW & ScotRail modified units) - are these likely to succumb to the same fate of being scrapped as many of the Pacers...?

 

[JonathanH]

Some of the 158s could well be likely to GWR where they may well be ideal to displace the 2+4 HSTs. The other 158s would be likely to go to Northern.

150s, 153s, 156s and 769s in the bin (although maybe the 150s and 156s could replace rogue units in the other fleets). There was a comment I read somewhere about Northern not wanting more 75mph units.

175s, who knows.

 

[ic31420]

Northern for strengthening.

How are the 158s getting on in terms of corrosion /fatigue?

 

[edwin_m]

Mentioned on another thread East West Rail is looking for a 6-year lease on DMUs.

 

[anamyd]

Mentioned on another thread East West Rail is looking for a 6-year lease on DMUs.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...c-to-select-committee-published.201596/page-2

Thanks for the replies

What would make the most sense to me is forming a fleet of 3-car "hybrid" 158s from some of the ex-TfW and ex-EMR 158s, using the ex-TfW units' driving vehicles which already have the required ETCS equipment fitted. They'll only need to have the DCO mods done then, right...? They'll also benefit from the interior refits ATW and EMT did.

 

[anthony263]

The class 158/175s would be ideal for east west. Was rumours gwr were considering taking on some of the tfw class 158s.

The tfw 150s could be split with gwr and west Midlands trains

 

[VT 390]

The tfw 150s could be split with gwr and west Midlands trains

Why would West Midlands Trains need the 150's as they have ordered 196's for West Midlands Railway and as the 150's that were with WMT have now moved to Northern if they reintroduced them I don't think passengers would be happy getting older trains back.

 

[MatthewRead]

The 769's could replace 150's on the Devon Metro.

 

[VT 390]

The 769's could replace 150's on the Devon Metro.

Would this not only be a good idea if at least part of the route was electrified as at the moment there is no electrification in that area.

 

[swt_passenger]

150s should probably be scrapped fairly quickly. Any further significant use (ie over a couple of years) and it takes them beyond their 40th year... As @JonathanH suggested, I also reckon the ROSCOs need to assume all the BR era 15x fleets are entering their final days before scrap. Short term stopgaps alongside similar fleets until they are also replaced are probably the likeliest scenarios. You might get a reasonable 5 years out of the 158s, but if you were looking for stock for EWR, wouldn’t you ideally want something just that bit newer, so 175s maybe?

 

[TheWalrus]

I had an idea for 175s to operate Cardiff-Portsmouth and possibly extend to Swansea. The fleet would be around the right size for this. They could operate as 5 car formations, replacing the turbos.

 

[VT 390]

I had an idea for 175s to operate Cardiff-Portsmouth and possibly extend to Swansea. The fleet would be around the right size for this. They could operate as 5 car formations, replacing the turbos.

They could well be quite good on that route, however would GWR want to have another train fleet that is quite different to anything they currently operate?
I would have thought that longer term that route would get new stock which could be the same type for all GWR regional services.

 

[MatthewRead]

Would this not only be a good idea if at least part of the route was electrified as at the moment there is no electrification in that area.

But the TFW 769's are going to be diesel all the way so I don't see the harm of them working in Devon.

 

[Bevan Price]

150s should probably be scrapped fairly quickly. Any further significant use (ie over a couple of years) and it takes them beyond their 40th year... As @JonathanH suggested, I also reckon the ROSCOs need to assume all the BR era 15x fleets are entering their final days before scrap. Short term stopgaps alongside similar fleets until they are also replaced are probably the likeliest scenarios. You might get a reasonable 5 years out of the 158s, but if you were looking for stock for EWR, wouldn’t you ideally want something just that bit newer, so 175s maybe?

I think you are optimistic to expect 15x Classes to disappear quickly. Once current orders for dmus are completed, I expect a drastic reduction in orders for new dmus for several years. Any "surplus" 150s could move to Northern to boost capacity, and I would expect them to last until at least 2025/2030. They may even be used to replace some of the 153s. Classes 156 & 158 could well last until 2030/2035, unless there is a strategic policy to expand electrification fairly quickly as part of greenhouse gas reduction measures.

As for the 175s, I think their best home might be Northern (close to the Chester maintenance base), and use them for the Liverpool / Manchester / Nottingham route in pairs (2+2) or (3+2), rather than let TPE use 185s on that route.
(TPE - if it still exists - or its successor, could then use 2x185 on all services not using their latest 5 coach trains. )

 

[TheWalrus]

They could well be quite good on that route, however would GWR want to have another train fleet that is quite different to anything they currently operate?
I would have thought that longer term that route would get new stock which could be the same type for all GWR regional services.

Yes that’s true. The other problem as someone has mentioned as it’s far away from their Chester depot.

 

[VT 390]

I think you are optimistic to expect 15x Classes to disappear quickly. Once current orders for dmus are completed, I expect a drastic reduction in orders for new dmus for several years. Any "surplus" 150s could move to Northern to boost capacity, and I would expect them to last until at least 2025/2030. They may even be used to replace some of the 153s. Classes 156 & 158 could well last until 2030/2035, unless there is a strategic policy to expand electrification fairly quickly as part of greenhouse gas reduction measures.

As for the 175s, I think their best home might be Northern (close to the Chester maintenance base), and use them for the Liverpool / Manchester / Nottingham route in pairs (2+2) or (3+2), rather than let TPE use 185s on that route.
(TPE - if it still exists - or its successor, could then use 2x185 on all services not using their latest 5 coach trains. )

Would the 175's not have the same issue of running in pairs as the 185's in that there is no end gangway. If this were not the case I would say they would be suitable but as the 185's already operate on similar services it would mean both fast Sheffield's could operate using the same stock.

 

[Energy]

The 158s could go to GWR to replace 150s and run 2x158s to replace the short HSTs. The rest will probably go to Northern.