Where should the third fast train on the Hope Valley go?

[Jorge Da Silva]

Hello, I want to see where people think the extra fast train per hour will go on the Hope Valley Line between Manchester and Sheffield?

Currently:

• 1x Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes (TransPennine Express)
• 1x Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich (East Midlands Railway; due to be cut to run from Liverpool to Nottingham and transferred to TPE)

Is there anywhere which could get an extra TransPennine services from Manchester?

 

[si404]

Manchester - Sheffield - Hull TPE (absorbing the Northern Connect service Sheffield - Hull). Possibly reroute the Nottingham - Manchester away from a reverse at Sheffield (additional Sheffield - Nottingham service to compensate).

 

[Iskra]

Based on a map, the most promising destinations all already have a decent service from Sheffield; Hull does, Cleethorpes does, Lincoln does, Nottingham does.

So, I'm going to suggest York- to provide some much needed competition against XC, much needed extra capacity and additional services on the route via Pontefract to restore a useable timetable.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Based on a map, the most promising destinations all already have a decent service from Sheffield; Hull does, Cleethorpes does, Lincoln does, Nottingham does.

So, I'm going to suggest York- to provide some much needed competition against XC, much needed extra capacity and additional services on the route via Pontefract to restore a useable timetable.

Lincoln does not have direct services to Manchester, which is the only one of the ones you pointed out that have a decent service to Sheffield does not have a service at all to Manchester. Would it be worth running a Manchester to Lincoln services?

Lincoln has direct trains to Leeds via Sheffield, Huddersfield (4tpd) Via Sheffield, Doncaster, Peterborough, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes, Nottingham and Leicester as well as London Kings Cross and London St Pancras but not Manchester Piccadilly or Airport. If you did run a service from Manchester to Lincoln would it be worth running to Skegness or Peterborough?

Manchester to Skegness could call at: Stockport, Sheffield, Worksop, Retford, Gainsborough Lea Road, Lincoln Central, Sleaford, Boston and Skegness

You could then have on the Hoper Valley Line:

• 1tph: Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes
• 1tph: Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham
• 1tph: Manchester Piccadilly to Lincoln Central

Unfortunately, you cannot extend the Nottingham service to Lincoln due to lack of capacity over the Newark Crossing

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Manchester - Sheffield - Hull TPE (absorbing the Northern Connect service Sheffield - Hull). Possibly reroute the Nottingham - Manchester away from a reverse at Sheffield (additional Sheffield - Nottingham service to compensate).

Isn't it a bit of detour? I mean if Hull is desperate for a Manchester Airport service just extend the existing service to Airport. Another destination I would suggest apart from Lincoln is Leicester and a Manchester to Leicester via Derby would mean Derby and Leicester would get restored services to Manchester.

 

[si404]

Isn't it a bit of detour?

Maybe (though not by much it's like a /=/ shape with via Leeds going diagonal and along, and via Sheffield going along and then diagonal. Sheffield is slightly south of Manchester, but Leeds is similarly north of Hull), but it's not primarily about end to end, more about taking important routes and making them higher quality. Sheffield-Hull ought to be one.

Plus Piccadilly-Stockport-Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull is going to make up for its less speedy route by having 4 stops rather than the 6 stops (Mossley to be removed next timetable), so it isn't bad for end to end - providing a second tph via an alternative route - even though end to end isn't my priority.

I mean if Hull is desperate for a Manchester Airport service just extend the existing service to Airport.

Where did I mention Airport-Hull? I didn't mention the airport at all!

Personally I'd go 2tph Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Doncaster- Humberside, 1tph Piccadilly - Nottingham, and 2tph Piccadilly - Airport (to deal with the 1tph Liverpool and 1tph Sheffield I've cut the airport service from and merged together). But that sort of thing isn't on the main topic, hence why I didn't discuss this.

destination I would suggest apart from Lincoln is Leicester and a Manchester to Leicester via Derby would mean Derby and Leicester would get restored services to Manchester.

Lincoln is a good idea. And probably should have Manchester via Sheffield instead of W Yorks via Sheffield, especially with your dislike of detouring routes.

Leicester, however, seems a bit similar to Nottingham: the main traffic objective on the east end of the Hope Valley (Sheffield) is a diversion and reverse. Plus I don't think Manchester - East Midlands needs an extra train more than Manchester - Humberside. Manchester - Derby can be done by rerouting the Manchester service that way (Nottingham - Sheffield via the current route). Leicester via a reverse at Nottingham?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Maybe (though not by much it's like a /=/ shape with via Leeds going diagonal and along, and via Sheffield going along and then diagonal. Sheffield is slightly south of Manchester, but Leeds is similarly north of Hull), but it's not primarily about end to end, more about taking important routes and making them higher quality. Sheffield-Hull ought to be one.

Plus Piccadilly-Stockport-Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull is going to make up for its less speedy route by having 4 stops rather than the 6 stops (Mossley to be removed next timetable), so it isn't bad for end to end - providing a second tph via an alternative route - even though end to end isn't my priority.
Where did I mention Airport-Hull? I didn't mention the airport at all!

Personally I'd go 2tph Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Doncaster- Humberside, 1tph Piccadilly - Nottingham, and 2tph Piccadilly - Airport (to deal with the 1tph Liverpool and 1tph Sheffield I've cut the airport service from and merged together). But that sort of thing isn't on the main topic, hence why I didn't discuss this.

Lincoln is a good idea. And probably should have Manchester via Sheffield instead of W Yorks via Sheffield, especially with your dislike of detouring routes.

Leicester, however, seems a bit similar to Nottingham: the main traffic objective on the east end of the Hope Valley (Sheffield) is a diversion and reverse. Plus I don't think Manchester - East Midlands needs an extra train more than Manchester - Humberside. Manchester - Derby can be done by rerouting the Manchester service that way (Nottingham - Sheffield via the current route). Leicester via a reverse at Nottingham?

Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Doncaster-Humberside???? Humberside do you mean Hull or Cleethorpes? Humberside no longer exists.

Lincoln sounds like the best option but an option for Skegness to be served providing them with direct services to Lincoln, Gainsborough, Retford, Sheffield and Manchester. I do not dislike Leeds to Lincoln via Sheffield

 

[si404]

Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Doncaster-Humberside???? Humberside do you mean Hull or Cleethorpes? Humberside no longer exists.

Humberside the county doesn't, but Humberside the geographic concept (there's still a Humber to be beside) that named the county still does... Of course I meant Hull and Cleethorpes (1tph to each)!

I do not dislike Leeds to Lincoln via Sheffield

Yet you dislike my Manchester - Hull via Sheffield as its a detour. This Leeds - Lincoln service not only makes a massive detour via Sheffield (Inc reverse), but doesn't even take the shortest Leeds-Sheffield route. I have no problem with it (though if Lincoln gets Manchester trains, then I can't see it surviving) - I do, however, have a problem with your inconsistent logic where this service is acceptable, but my proposal isn't for reasons that apply all the more to this service!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Humberside the county doesn't, but Humberside the geographic concept (there's still a Humber to be beside) that named the county still does... Of course I meant Hull and Cleethorpes (1tph to each)!
Yet you dislike my Manchester - Hull via Sheffield as its a detour. This Leeds - Lincoln service not only makes a massive detour via Sheffield (Inc reverse), but doesn't even take the shortest Leeds-Sheffield route. I have no problem with it (though if Lincoln gets Manchester trains, then I can't see it surviving) - I do, however, have a problem with your inconsistent logic where this service is acceptable, but my proposal isn't for reasons that apply all the more to this service!

Ok i suppose Manchester-Hull would help provide a second train per hour to Doncaster from Manchester

 

[30907]

Ok i suppose Manchester-Hull would help provide a second train per hour to Doncaster from Manchester

I'm sure it existed previously but can't check ATM.
The real advantage IMO is that you could then make TP North more flexible by withdrawing the existing Hull service west of Leeds - pathing 5tph all the way from Micklefield to Stalybridge must be a nightmare!
TP North core could then be 4tph York-Manchester Vic plus 2tph Huddersfield-Picc semi-fast; one of these could start back from Castleford, the other Leeds.
Hull-Leeds might then go to Bradford and a Calder Valley destination.
(I realise Hull to Halifax isn't a huge flow, but am assuming that Hull to Huddersfield isn't either.)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'm sure it existed previously but can't check ATM.
The real advantage IMO is that you could then make TP North more flexible by withdrawing the existing Hull service west of Leeds - pathing 5tph all the way from Micklefield to Stalybridge must be a nightmare!
TP North core could then be 4tph York-Manchester Vic plus 2tph Huddersfield-Picc semi-fast; one of these could start back from Castleford, the other Leeds.
Hull-Leeds might then go to Bradford and a Calder Valley destination.
(I realise Hull to Halifax isn't a huge flow, but am assuming that Hull to Huddersfield isn't either.)

Sheffield City Region is desperate for a second train per hour between Manchester and Doncaster so Hull maybe the only place for it other than Cleethorpes. The only other place for an extra TPE service is again Lincoln the only destination to the East which does not have a link to Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

There seems no point in diverting the Manchester - Nottingham service away from Sheffield if you then end up running an additional Manchester - Sheffield service and an additional Sheffield - Nottingham service - the railway is clogged up with too many short trains as it is - if there are additional units then we'd be better lengthening existing services

I'm going to suggest York- to provide some much needed competition against XC, much needed extra capacity and additional services on the route via Pontefract to restore a useable timetable.

Manchester - Sheffield - Pontefract - York?

I mean if Hull is desperate for a Manchester Airport service just extend the existing service to Airport

"just" extend it down the branch (ignoring the fact that there are nine trains already each hour from Piccadilly to the Airport with an average loading of just thirtysomething passengers)?

Seems a waste of a DMU...

Personally I'd go 2tph Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Doncaster- Humberside, 1tph Piccadilly - Nottingham, and 2tph Piccadilly - Airport (to deal with the 1tph Liverpool and 1tph Sheffield I've cut the airport service from and merged together). But that sort of thing isn't on the main topic, hence why I didn't discuss this

Personally I'd agree with you in terms of a half hourly service from Liverpool to Humberside via Warrington Central and the Hope Valley - we need simpler service patterns in northern England and that would be a much better use of existing stock.

Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Doncaster-Humberside???? Humberside do you mean Hull or Cleethorpes? Humberside no longer exists

Lots of administrative places no longer exist in meaningful current form - but it sounds silly to refer to that area as "the Humber" (e.g. in the way that they are often lumped in with Yorkshire) as that suggests just a river.

Hull-Leeds might then go to Bradford and a Calder Valley destination.
(I realise Hull to Halifax isn't a huge flow, but am assuming that Hull to Huddersfield isn't either.)

Hull to Halifax won't be a huge flow but that isn't stopping it from becoming an hourly service in the near future, as part of Northern's plan to give Bradford a direct service to everywhere and make services less reliable by ignoring the bay platforms at Leeds (and introducing more cross-polluting services that will ensure delays on one side of Leeds spread to the other side of Leeds)

 

[Iskra]

Manchester - Sheffield - Pontefract - York?

Pontefract Baghill, yes.

It wouldn't make any sense as an end to end journey, but Manchester-Sheffield and Sheffield-York definitely need an improved service, so if you can do that and restore a service on the Dearne Valley line that is more than just a token service, then why not? Calling the service at Meadowhall would give it a regular direct York service too which would surely drive custom due to the excellent parking provision and proximity to the M1.

As you say all the other sensible potential destinations already have a Sheffield service, so you are just congesting the network. I'm not convinced Lincoln needs/justifies a direct Manchester service. It can be achieved with one change at multiple stations.

 

[si404]

There seems no point in diverting the Manchester - Nottingham service away from Sheffield if you then end up running an additional Manchester - Sheffield service and an additional Sheffield - Nottingham service - the railway is clogged up with too many short trains as it is - if there are additional units then we'd be better lengthening existing services

Consider it a bonus service supplimenting 2tph Liverpool-Manchester-Doncaster-Hull/Cleethorpes and 2tph Nottingham-Sheffield(-Leeds via Hallam line?). Going to Sheffield and reversing adds 20 minutes to Manchester-Nottingham so if it's worth serving with through trains, it's worth serving without the detour. Otherwise just have those E-W and N-S half-hourly services and seek changes between them, with the third Hope Valley fast as Manchester-Lincoln joining up loose ends.

 

[Bevan Price]

Liverpool / Manchester - Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull would be restoration of services that used to exist in the pre-Sprinter era, although these were less than hourly. In the "steam" era, a few trains per day ran from Liverpool Central to Hull via Woodhead. In my opinion, the Northern Hull - Sheffield services should be extended hourly to Manchester via Hope Valley, rather than let Trans Pennine run an additional Hope Valley "express".

 

[tbtc]

Pontefract Baghill, yes.

It wouldn't make any sense as an end to end journey, but Manchester-Sheffield and Sheffield-York definitely need an improved service, so if you can do that and restore a service on the Dearne Valley line that is more than just a token service, then why not? Calling the service at Meadowhall would give it a regular direct York service too which would surely drive custom due to the excellent parking provision and proximity to the M1.

As you say all the other sensible potential destinations already have a Sheffield service, so you are just congesting the network. I'm not convinced Lincoln needs/justifies a direct Manchester service. It can be achieved with one change at multiple stations.

I'm all for an improved Sheffield - York service, although one running via Pontefract wouldn't be any faster than the current XC services through Donny (due to the terrible line speeds, partly due to the land the route was built upon), with the added disadvantages that they'd avoid the significant intermediate stations (Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds) that XC serve.

It just feels like any attempt to improve the service through Baghill ought to stand/fall on its own merits, rather than the complications of running a Manchester - York service that will be overtaken by several other ex-Manchester trains before it arrives in York (i.e. running via Leeds).

Consider it a bonus service supplimenting 2tph Liverpool-Manchester-Doncaster-Hull/Cleethorpes and 2tph Nottingham-Sheffield(-Leeds via Hallam line?). Going to Sheffield and reversing adds 20 minutes to Manchester-Nottingham so if it's worth serving with through trains, it's worth serving without the detour. Otherwise just have those E-W and N-S half-hourly services and seek changes between them, with the third Hope Valley fast as Manchester-Lincoln joining up loose ends.

I'd argue that it's less than twenty minutes, even with a dwell at Sheffield, but with the need to run a Manchester - Sheffield service and a Sheffield - Nottingham service to maintain current frequencies (unless the plan is to drop that route down to hourly).

TBH I'd rather have longer trains in the Hope Valley than a third (short) service per hour.

Liverpool / Manchester - Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull would be restoration of services that used to exist in the pre-Sprinter era, although these were less than hourly. In the "steam" era, a few trains per day ran from Liverpool Central to Hull via Woodhead. In my opinion, the Northern Hull - Sheffield services should be extended hourly to Manchester via Hope Valley, rather than let Trans Pennine run an additional Hope Valley "express".

A half hourly Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester - Stockport- Sheffield - Meadowhall - Doncaster - Humberside sounds good - could be run by EMR/ TPE/ Northern - the TOC is unimportant to me - but an evenly spaced service with a reasonable train length (say over 100m long, minimum) would get my vote.

 

[randyrippley]

Some of them at least should be Barrow - Sheffield, maybe alternating with Blackpool - Sheffield. Maybe continuing to Nottingham or further.
Contrary to general wisdom, not all Lancastrians want to go to the airport. When the 156 fleet appeared, they were used on services between Barrow/Blackpool to Harwich and they provided a simple route to both the MML and ECML from the NW. Impossible to do that now without multiple changes.

 

[adrock1976]

A while ago in the Hope Valley Capacity Upgrade thread (this was before proposals to split the Liverpool - Norwich at Nottingham), I suggested something along the lines of:

1) Liverpool - Cleethorpes Regional Express via Warrington Central, Manchester Pic, Stockport, Sheffield, Doncaster, and Scunthorpe (running the western section to Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport)

2) Manchester Pic - Sheffield local via Bradbury and New Mills Central, calling all stations (similar as to the present day)

3) Manchester Pic - Nottingham Regional Express via Dore South Curve calling Stockport, Hazel Grove (maybe), Chinley, Dore & Totley, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Toton Interchange (when it opens and depending on track layout), Beeston, and Nottingham.

The present Northern Leeds - Sheffield via Wakefield Kirkgate and Barnsley Interchange (now running to Lincoln Central via Worksop I believe) to run to Nottingham, maintaining the 2tph frequency between Sheffield and Nottingham. The Lincoln Central can be curtailed to run Sheffield - Lincoln, and may make the timetable more robust as it only interacts with Nunnery Main Line Junction once instead of twice.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why not just terminate it at Sheffield? That way, you can yield manage as many people as possible onto it and therefore free up capacity on other trains!

I know everyone wants direct trains from everywhere to anywhere but realistically if you can force two connections off of it (a stopping Donny and a Retford / Lincoln via Kiveton?) then you may find things are vastly more successful.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

When the 156 fleet appeared, they were used on services between Barrow/Blackpool to Harwich and they provided a simple route to both the MML and ECML from the NW.

What route did they take?

 

[30907]

What route did they take?

When loco-hauled it was via Manchester Vic, then round the east of Manchester via the line from Phillips Park to Ashburys, New Mills and the present route to Ely. Possibly via Beighton Jn to save reversing at Sheffield.
By the time it was Sprinterised it could have switched to the Windsor Link and Piccadilly.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

When loco-hauled it was via Manchester Vic, then round the east of Manchester via the line from Phillips Park to Ashburys, New Mills and the present route to Ely. Possibly via Beighton Jn to save reversing at Sheffield.
By the time it was Sprinterised it could have switched to the Windsor Link and Piccadilly.

Thank you. I'd have enjoyed making that journey!

 

[DanTrain]

3) Manchester Pic - Nottingham Regional Express via Dore South Curve calling Stockport, Hazel Grove (maybe), Chinley, Dore & Totley, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Toton Interchange (when it opens and depending on track layout), Beeston, and Nottingham.

If you had a) a platform at Dore where that could call and b) a decent connection to Sheffield from there then that could possibly work. Unfortunately there are currently neither so that's a non-starter, a 3rd fast is more important overall than a fast to Nottingham. Very few people commute Nottingham - Manchester whereas quite a lot do Sheffield - Mancehster so that's really where the capacity is needed. A 3rd Sheffield - Nottingham wouldn't go amiss either...!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

What is the point in a Liverpool to Cleethorpes service?

 

[IanXC]

I've thought for a while that the optimum would be for this collection of service groups would be:

Liverpool to Nottingham via Derby (TPE?)
Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes (TPE)
Norwich to Sheffield via Alfreton (EMR)
Nottingham to Leeds/Bradford via Alfreton and Wakefield Westgate (Northern)
Manchester Piccadilly to Lincoln (or beyond) via Sheffield (TPE?)

I'm also not convinced that the S&K is a suitable route to introduce to this equation. It needs to stand on its own 2 feet, or at least as a Moorthorpe to Sheffield and Sherburn to York service joined for operational convenience.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I've thought for a while that the optimum would be for this collection of service groups would be:

Liverpool to Nottingham via Derby (TPE?)
Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes (TPE)
Norwich to Sheffield via Alfreton (EMR)
Nottingham to Leeds/Bradford via Alfreton and Wakefield Westgate (Northern)
Manchester Piccadilly to Lincoln (or beyond) via Sheffield (TPE?)

I'm also not convinced that the S&K is a suitable route to introduce to this equation. It needs to stand on its own 2 feet, or at least as a Moorthorpe to Sheffield and Sherburn to York service joined for operational convenience.

No plans for Norwich to Sheffield as far as I am aware unless your suggesting it should go to Sheffield, which I was surprised it was not going to go to.

Liverpool to Nottingham should be left where it is via Alfreton

Manchester to Lincoln does seem like the best choice everywhere else has a service to Manchester.

 

[si404]

What is the point in a Liverpool to Cleethorpes service?

Enhanced Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield service as well as linking those 3 very big cities to mid-sized places: Warrington, Stockport, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Grimsby.

 

[si404]

Liverpool to Nottingham should be left where it is via Alfreton

when there's still 2tph via Alfreton in the proposal, why?

everywhere else has a service to Manchester.

Derby doesn't, and it seems like you don't want it to!

 

[IanXC]

No plans for Norwich to Sheffield as far as I am aware unless your suggesting it should go to Sheffield, which I was surprised it was not going to go to.

Liverpool to Nottingham should be left where it is via Alfreton

Manchester to Lincoln does seem like the best choice everywhere else has a service to Manchester.

So Sheffield to Nottingham should have 3 trains per hour via Alfreton?!

Running the TPE (the real express) via Derby has the advantage of increasing the the East Midlands connectivity.

 

[randyrippley]

What route did they take?

Barrow/Blackpool - Preston - Wigan - Piccadilly - Hope Valley - Sheffield (reverse) - Alfreton - Nottingham - Grantham - Peterborough - Ely - Harwich
Single 156 all the way, with a 150/2 added at Sheffield for the sprint down the MML as far as Alfreton