Where to build west facing bays in Manchester?

[Purple Orange]

Manchester needs west facing terminal platforms. How many platforms, where and what services would use it?

One rule: knocking down the arena above Victoria is not permitted to be an option.

 

[30907]

Victoria
1 (or 2) on the viaduct just to the W. Relatively straightforward, requires slewing the P6 line southward, should be then space for 6 cars.
Use - Northern services via Salford Cr, whichever you like.

Deansgate
A new single line, south of the existing on viaduct from the CLC. Very expensive, but you asked
Use - stopping trains ex Warrington, allowing an increased frequency, assuming the option of a tram-train to Irlam is not taken.
Cheaper alternatives: a single-platform terminus at Cornbrook or Pomona; the former would be challenging, the latter probably has space but would require a pedestrian bridge over the canal.

ISTR NR are looking at the Victoria one, but are concentrating on the rebuild of Oxford Road.

 

[Ken H]

Manchester Central?

 

[JonathanH]

There do seem to be some car parks beside some of the railway lines on the west side of Manchester that could be used but I guess the question is whether they are long enough. More space in Salford than Manchester.

Manchester Central?

I'm not sure that really helps given you still have to get through the Deansgate area and conflict with Metrolink.

Manchester Liverpool Street appears to be an option but the Ordsall Curve would have to be severed and it wouldn't be any good for connections.

Better use should be made of the railway land through Salford Central and the approaches to Victoria.

 

[Nottingham59]

I agree that Manchester needs west-facing platforms. It would solve a lot of the issues of capacity in and around the City. I only know the area from decades ago, but it seemed to me that there are three places you could fit them without too much disruption to the city centre, as it is now.

1. Bay platforms to the South West of Manchester Victoria, on a widened bridge over the River Irwell. Would be a bit of a trek from the main station concourse. These could serve a high-frequency shuttle service to the airport, without conflicting with traffic from Bolton or Liverpool heading towards Stalybridge.
2. As an undercroft to the new HS2 station, with the low-level platforms accessed by tunnel from the North-West. Could servce regional expresses from Bolton and Wigan, heading towards Stockport (or via the new NPR line towards Huddersfield). As the HS2 station design is now effectively fixed, the next best place is alongside of the HS2 station, to the North East of it.
3. Rebuild and raise the G-Mex Manchester conference centre, with railway platforms below the venue, accessed from the South-West via the CLC line. Terminating CLC traffic here would grade-separate the Castlefield corridor, drastically simplify operations, especially if freight could access Trafford Park from the South West, and via Carrington.

Where would you put them?

 

[Purple Orange]

Manchester Central is out of the question because there is a skyscraper being built right where the approach to the station was. It’s actually a fascinating construct given it needs to be built through the arches and there may be another building that bridges over the Metrolink line.

West facing bays really needs to be able to relieve Castlefield in some way, so they need to accommodate services from Scotland, Cumbria, North Wales and Blackpool mainly. However after building a platform at Victoria (I assume on the north-west side of the station going up to the arena wall, I can only picture three scenarios:

1. Building north facing chord to HS2 to allow Scotland services to run in to Piccadilly HS2, but that would only remove 1 tph from the Bolton line and it might not be any faster. Although even if not faster, it might be worth it still for capacity release.
2. Building a terminus west of Middlewood Locks where the retail park sits. The city centre is growing out to that direction anyway, so it should not feel disconnected, but it might not be as useful as more bays at Victoria.
3. Rather than build 1 platform bay at Victoria, build 2 platforms with the intention of terminating at least 4 services that would otherwise go through Castlefield.

Perhaps option 1 and 3 might be the way to go, allowing a 400m Scotland service (split Glasgow & Edinburgh at Carlisle) to run to Piccadilly HS2. Then sending 2 Blackpool, 1 Cumbria and 1 North Wales service to terminate at Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Victoria. Ideally flatten the Arena and build a proper terminal station with 21st century facilities, but failing that there's room to squeeze a few in.
Piccadilly. Build 15/16 and reversing sidings east of the station; the extra through platforms would work OK for termination as you wouldn't need to avoid blocking platforms quite so urgently.

Deansgate is a bad idea as it would not offer decent onward connections.

 

[Purple Orange]

Victoria. Ideally flatten the Arena and build a proper terminal station with 21st century facilities, but failing that there's room to squeeze a few in.
Piccadilly. Build 15/16 and reversing sidings east of the station; the extra through platforms would work OK for termination as you wouldn't need to avoid blocking platforms quite so urgently.

Deansgate is a bad idea as it would not offer decent onward connections.

Naughty. There was one rule!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Naughty. There was one rule!

Sorry, skim-read!

With Victoria remaining as it is there is room for 1 bay on the disused viaduct butting up against the Arena, and in my understanding a plan does now exist to build that one. Add a new bridge to fill the gap and you'd easily get 3 though the southernmost one would be quite short, maybe 3-car. You would also probably get 2 more in butting up against the island platform if a new bridge was built to fill that gap. That'd give you 5 - plenty.

 

[Purple Orange]

Sorry, skim-read!

With Victoria remaining as it is there is room for 1 bay on the disused viaduct butting up against the Arena, and in my understanding a plan does now exist to build that one. Add a new bridge to fill the gap and you'd easily get 3 though the southernmost one would be quite short, maybe 3-car. You would also probably get 2 more in butting up against the island platform if a new bridge was built to fill that gap. That'd give you 5 - plenty.

I guess it depends for what purpose terminus platforms should be used for. If we consider that the airport is only being used as a means of terminating trains that can’t otherwise terminate in central Manchester, it is those services that should be accommodated at the western bays in the city centre. I‘d focus them on trains that come from Bolton, thus keeping the southern tracks that run through Salford Central to the Ordsall Chord and Chat Moss free for through running services from the east of Victoria.

 

[zwk500]

It depends what you want to terminate in these new platforms, but taking advantage of the Mayfield site, building a new set of 4 through platforms for castle field and then decking over the space in between there and Piccadilly train shed to provide 6-car bays for the CLC and Chat Moss is at least possible from an engineering perspective.
If a little more realism (I stress only a little) is required then perhaps some turnback sidings east of Manchester Victoria, ideally at least one between each pair of lines to permit 2min drop offs before shunting out and back in for a quick pick up. It would need the viaduct widening though, so it's feasibility is open to discussion.

 

[Purple Orange]

It depends what you want to terminate in these new platforms, but taking advantage of the Mayfield site, building a new set of 4 through platforms for castle field and then decking over the space in between there and Piccadilly train shed to provide 6-car bays for the CLC and Chat Moss is at least possible from an engineering perspective.
If a little more realism (I stress only a little) is required then perhaps some turnback sidings east of Manchester Victoria, ideally at least one between each pair of lines to permit 2min drop offs before shunting out and back in for a quick pick up. It would need the viaduct widening though, so it's feasibility is open to discussion.

The Mayfield site is being developed in to a park with various offices and residential.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I would build them here...



Its still in Manchester

Its flat, level and already owned by the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. I never knew the station was literally only half its previous size.

There is something more civilised about boarding a train at a terminus rather than having to do so quickly at an intermediate station, though. And if you send everything there, it'd just end up another Castlefield, plus you'd have to seriously lop service at the local stations.

I guess it depends for what purpose terminus platforms should be used for. If we consider that the airport is only being used as a means of terminating trains that can’t otherwise terminate in central Manchester, it is those services that should be accommodated at the western bays in the city centre. I‘d focus them on trains that come from Bolton, thus keeping the southern tracks that run through Salford Central to the Ordsall Chord and Chat Moss free for through running services from the east of Victoria.

Good bit of dog-wagging there...

 

[SteveM70]

Once the new arena opens out by the Etihad, it may be that the current arena becomes redundant. If that happens, there's your opportunity

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once the new arena opens out by the Etihad, it may be that the current arena becomes redundant. If that happens, there's your opportunity

To be fair the thread is predicated on not closing the Arena, but if it did I would absolutely support demolishing it and Victoria (in phases) and building a proper second main station for Manchester, with 8-10 long (~260m so as to allow for Pendolino diversions but normally used in A and B sections) through platforms, a Piccadilly level of facilities and a nice open overall roof, so it can become a desirable station to use and people won't object to services being moved there.

Salford Central should also be demolished and rebuilt to modern standards including platforms on all lines, it'd be embarrassing if it was in a third rate provincial town and is terrible for accessibility due to the platforms being at almost Continental height, but it is a bit out of the way to be a second Hbf and isn't Metrolink connected, also the site is constrained on both sides so it couldn't accommodate more than 6 platforms.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Once the new arena opens out by the Etihad, it may be that the current arena becomes redundant. If that happens, there's your opportunity

One rule: knocking down the arena above Victoria is not permitted to be an option.

Besides the cost of acquiring the land would be ridiculous!

I would love to see the North side of Victoria rebuilt with additional platforms thou.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair the thread is predicated on not closing the Arena, but if it did I would absolutely support demolishing it and Victoria (in phases) and building a proper second main station for Manchester, with 8-10 long (~260m so as to allow for Pendolino diversions but normally used in A and B sections) through platforms, a Piccadilly level of facilities and a nice open overall roof, so it can become a desirable station to use and people won't object to services being moved there.

Salford Central should also be demolished and rebuilt to modern standards including platforms on all lines, it'd be embarrassing if it was in a third rate provincial town and is terrible for accessibility due to the platforms being at almost Continental height, but it is a bit out of the way to be a second Hbf and isn't Metrolink connected, also the site is constrained on both sides so it couldn't accommodate more than 6 platforms.

It's a shame that the scumbag who blew himself up at the arena didn't (a) do so at 2am when nobody else was around; and (b) use a bomb big enough to actually get rid of the damn thing. The previous time a bomb went off in Manchester (the Real IRA in 1996) did more to regenerate the city than any government intervention since!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The previous time a bomb went off in Manchester (the Real IRA in 1996) did more to regenerate the city than any government intervention since!

Very true, even though it knackered my day somewhat! The area affected was an utter dive and is now quite desirable, with Piccadilly Gardens instead the dive.

Point of order, it was the "Provisional IRA" i.e. the "original" one, wasn't it? It predated the ceasefire which the "Real IRA" chose to ignore.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Very true, even though it knackered my day somewhat! The area affected was an utter dive and is now quite desirable, with Piccadilly Gardens instead the dive.

Point of order, it was the "Provisional IRA" i.e. the "original" one, wasn't it? It predated the ceasefire which the "Real IRA" chose to ignore.

It may have been- my memory is that it was some sort of splinter group, as it was pre-Good Friday Agreement- but there had been an earlier ceasefire under the Major government. We are off topic though, so moving on...

 

[Purple Orange]

Good bit of dog-wagging there...

How? The problem is castlefield, and the fact that the central Manchester lines are not being used in a way suitable for the infrastructure. The Windsor Link is the one I’d get rid of to be honest, as it has encouraged everything to be pushed through Piccadilly when it doesn’t need to be. The Ordsall Chord should be a stretch of line that sees a minimum 6 tph all stop network, this facilitating far better connections across the city And between Victoria & Piccadilly too.

 

[billio]

I would utilise the unused 4-track viaduct to the east of Manchester Victoria to either provide turn-back sidings or less likely to access a new terminus station at Red Bank (?) near the shopping centre. Otherwise send them on to Rochdale as suggested earlier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How? The problem is castlefield, and the fact that the central Manchester lines are not being used in a way suitable for the infrastructure. The Windsor Link is the one I’d get rid of to be honest, as it has encouraged everything to be pushed through Piccadilly when it doesn’t need to be. The Ordsall Chord should be a stretch of line that sees a minimum 6 tph all stop network, this facilitating far better connections across the city And between Victoria & Piccadilly too.

If you want to facilitate interchange, make the tram free. No need to reduce connectivity by doing that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Reopen part of the Manchester Exchange site, connected to an extension of Victoria Platform 3. (Replacing the former Platform 11 Middle).

 

[Purple Orange]

If you want to facilitate interchange, make the tram free. No need to reduce connectivity by doing that.

Making the tram free wouldn’t do anything to help. Central Manchester has a ready-made metro line, but it is a choice made by the rail industry to not use it as one. This would maximise connectivity and end the tyranny of ‘everywhere to everywhere’ that blights the Manchester rail network.

There should be a metro service level on the following lines:

• Line 1: Victoria, Salford Central, Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly.
• Line 2: Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Victoria
• Line 3: Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, CLC

If your train comes in from the Chat Moss or via Salford Crescent & Bolton, but you want Piccadilly, Oxford Rd or Deansgate, change at Salford Central. This provides better access to Spinningfields & St. Johns which are the areas with the greatest volume of jobs and are areas that are poorly served by rail. Manchester’s rail network should cease being a dogs dinner because a politician or pressure group makes it so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And with that, Victoria would have the same problem Castlefield now does. If you want to go the Castlefield S Bahn way, you need a rebuilt Victoria with 8 through platforms and no Arena.

 

[Purple Orange]

And with that, Victoria would have the same problem Castlefield now does. If you want to go the Castlefield S Bahn way, you need a rebuilt Victoria with 8 through platforms and no Arena.

Only if you force too many services through Victoria. As I say, Manchester needs more west facing bays, and the fact that it does not is a choice by the industry and government. The thread has highlighted several ways in which more terminal capacity could happe, other than the unrealistic arena/victoria issue.

 

[Austriantrain]

And with that, Victoria would have the same problem Castlefield now does. If you want to go the Castlefield S Bahn way, you need a rebuilt Victoria with 8 through platforms and no Arena.

While I perfectly accept the reasoning for not building the Manchester HS2 station as a through station, certainly the answer to the capacity problems in central Manchester anywhere on the continent would be to build a mixed-use („S-Bahn“ and „regular trains“) tunnel connecting the Stockport line (probably with a connection from MIA too) through Piccadilly to the Bolton and Chat Moss line, reserving the Castlefield Corridor for CLC and Ordsall Chord services.

There must be a point where the cost difference to building Piccadilly platforms 15+16, expanding Victoria, etc will not, in sum, be noticeable anymore, especially as these are not likely to be long-term fixes, whereas a tunnel would.

 

[Ken H]

While I perfectly accept the reasoning for not building the Manchester HS2 station as a through station, certainly the answer to the capacity problems in central Manchester anywhere on the continent would be to build a mixed-use („S-Bahn“ and „regular trains“) tunnel connecting the Stockport line (probably with a connection from MIA too) through Piccadilly to the Bolton and Chat Moss line, reserving the Castlefield Corridor for CLC and Ordsall Chord services.

There must be a point where the cost difference to building Piccadilly platforms 15+16, expanding Victoria, etc will not, in sum, be noticeable anymore, especially as these are not likely to be long-term fixes, whereas a tunnel would.

I am sure you know this was proposed by the PTE around 1970 but was deemed unaffordable. So they did metrolink instead.

 

[zwk500]

While I perfectly accept the reasoning for not building the Manchester HS2 station as a through station, certainly the answer to the capacity problems in central Manchester anywhere on the continent would be to build a mixed-use („S-Bahn“ and „regular trains“) tunnel connecting the Stockport line (probably with a connection from MIA too) through Piccadilly to the Bolton and Chat Moss line, reserving the Castlefield Corridor for CLC and Ordsall Chord services.

There must be a point where the cost difference to building Piccadilly platforms 15+16, expanding Victoria, etc will not, in sum, be noticeable anymore, especially as these are not likely to be long-term fixes, whereas a tunnel would.

Genuine question - given nearly all the lines in Manchester are currently on viaducts, where would your portals be? And separately, is tunneling under Manchester actually viable given the foundations for tall buildings and rivers?